Animosity

Van

Now you charge me with using intentionally offensive words. My goal, according to your false statement, is to be rude rather than informative.
If I was not trying to offend, but rather to show error, using salty lanuage, drawing a clear line between what the bible says and what people want it to say, then my motives are pure. To assume my motives are less than righteous, without even asking me why I use the words I do, to charge me with animosity rather than compassion is a tad intolerant. Do you get the pick and choose which words others may use because those words offend you? Is that not intolerant? Is saying an argument is incoherant and rambling less offensive than saying an argument is blather? No. Both are aimed at the argument and not the person. They are descriptive, neither rude nor insulting.

Years ago, in a rather right wing church in Tucson, I met a lady that had had a hard life. She had made mistakes, no worse of course in the eyes of God from your mistakes or my mistakes. She was trying to put her life together again, trying to establish a relation with God and God's children, attending that church. She had a child that looked different from what was commonly accepted. His father had been black and she was white. I remember helping her out the car, and lifting her little innocent child out in an age before Martin Luther King. We walked into the church, and I am holding the little tyke in my arms. It crosses my mind, what will they think? Then I gave the kid a hug, smiled my best smile and boldly walked to the front of the church for all to see. Taking risks, confronting evil is not easy, and does not make you a favorite. But it is the cross of Christ.

Are people that engage in homosexual activity worse than other sinners in the eyes of God? Nope. But are people who say homosexual activity is not condemned by God false teachers? Yes. Killing pre-born children is wrong. Are those who have done it any worse than those who have broken one point of the law? Nope. But those that say killing the pre-born child is not an offense to God are false teachers.

I have not just made assertions, I have provided biblical support, such as it is, for these positions. Your job is to check the scriptures, to see if what I say is true, and to confront me if I seem in error, seem to be a false teacher.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Okay Van, you have a point. I may have made charges that you are intentionally using language to insult. Although I was asking why - to which I recieved no reply.

My conclusion that you use the words you use intentionally may have been off the mark, and if it was, I am truly sorry. I deduced your intent only after observation of your posts and behavior as exibited in those posts. On more than one occassion I remarked that your use of certain words and insinuations had personally offended me and I felt it was a personal attack. You did nothing to asuage my concern, in fact you did the opposite. You justified your actions and continued to use the words and make the insinuations. From that action alone I could only conclude that you are, and have been doing it intentionally to be rude and insulting.

I also know myself and my ability with language, and how I have in the past used selected words, language, insinuations to be insulting - very clever I thought myself to be. In your posts I see a mirror image of my own past behavior.

Perhaps you can refresh me as to what the Word says about causing your brother to stumble? I can freely admit that you are much more versed in the bible than I am, so I am sure you know the passage or passages that concern this topic.

As for this:

Van · Posted: Fri May 30, 2003 6:50 am Post subject: Projection

In you last post you hit the nail on the head. Because you write clever words, aimed at insulting or insinuating some point, you assume that I do the same thing. For example, I have said my words of rebuke were aimed at your false arguments, but what you assumed was what I really was doing was attacking you personally. But does the Bible teach that we should slander others with clever words. Nope.

What does the bible say, that our yes should be yes and our no should be no. We should cling to the truth. We should speak bolding for Christ. That we should love one another in Spirit.

Now you say that you asked about my words but I did not answer. Perhaps we should review the record: I said my words were aimed at your arguments. I said they were descriptive of your arguments just as your use of sophmoric arguments was descriptive of an argument.

Now look at what a tangled web we weave if your use of sophmoric arguments was really intended to insult. Then my reliance upon that principle simply reinforced your views. Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

From now on, do not assume I am behaving like you are. I might be but please do not assume it. I might be telling the truth, at least doing my best even though I could be mistaken. I could be trying to present the bible clearly. I could be your friend and not someone who enjoys hurting others.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Phinehas · Posted: Fri May 30, 2003 10:54 am Post subject: You're too much.

RevJP, you're too much.

Would it be wrong to call out hypocrisy, or would it be better to say nothing for the sake of preserving harmony?

Dshadna · German Shepherd Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 344

Dear Van,
I wish to thank you for showing me the true error of my way. Based on your words and actions here, and that you proclaim to be a tool or mouthpiece for God, I now know how to treat fellow Christians, and those who are seeking God's truth.

I will now, with your insights and blessings, proceed to do to others, as you have done to others. I will now make sure to tell any Christian who disagrees with me, and any person seeking the truth in God's word, that their thoughts are bogus, and that they must never bother me with their drivel and blather.

This is what I have learned from you, who says that anyone who does not believe as you do, and subscribe to your same beliefs, that they must not be listened to, and must instead be called false prophets, and tools of the devil.

I wish to thank you; Van and others, for showing me, that I have been wrong in my treating Christians with understanding, and tolerence. Thanks to those of you who have taught me this; I will no longer be allowing others to see the gentle and compassionate Jesus, that the many Bible Scholars and ministers of the faith have taught me to exemplify, but I will now be showing them the Christ that you all have portrayed as being the True Christ. I will now be justifying my actions with the same words and actions that you have used toward myself and others when I'm doing so. I will now use the Bible as a weapon against anyone who may dare to cross me and my beliefs in religion and otherwise.

Thank you so much for teaching me what I have not known before. My life as a Christian is going to be so much more rewarding, now that I know that it alright to use biting words, ridicule, and scorn toward others who are on the path of rightousness and seeking of the truth.

I will no longer be portaying a Christ of mercy, compassion, love, understanding and dignity, but will instead begin attacking and using my status as a Christian to make certian that those who would dare to believe anything other than what I believe to be the Truth are treated exactly as I have been shown here. I will now pat myself on the back and others who agree with me, that we have driven true seekers of knowledge and Christ from our midsts. This is the lesson you've taught me, and you taught it well.

My thanks to those who have taught me that I've been wrong in portraying Christ in any other manner than that which you have shown me to be false.

Dshadna · German Shepherd Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 344

Van · Posted: Fri May 30, 2003 3:52 pm Post subject: Thanks

Phin, I really appreciate your thoughtful and accurate analysis of this thread. Better than I have done. With your eloquent defense of the truth, I feel it would be prudent of me to ignore the dishonor tossed my way and turn my attention elsewhere.

Again, you have blessed me more than you could know,

Van

Dshadna · German Shepherd Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 344

Dshadna · German Shepherd Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 344

Captain Vegetable · Posted: Sat May 31, 2003 7:27 am Post subject:

Dshadna, your's isn't simply a matter of disagreement. You try to teach others concerning your viewpoint...a viewpoint hereto thought of as sinfull. That is false teaching, as you would have Christians sacrifice their Godly beliefs and behavior, in favor of sin, all the while telling them it's "OKay."
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Dshadna · German Shepherd Joined: 21 Apr 2003 Posts: 344

THAT IS YOUR POINT OF VIEW!!

I know what God has told me is specific sin in MY life. I do not point to you what your sins are...and I'd appreciate it if you'd please leave God to the judging, and pointing out of sins.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Romans 14
1AS FOR the man who is a weak believer, welcome him [into your fellowship], but not to criticize his opinions or pass judgment on his scruples or perplex him with discussions.
2One [man's faith permits him to] believe he may eat anything, while a weaker one [limits his] eating to vegetables.
3Let not him who eats look down on or despise him who abstains, and let not him who abstains criticize and pass judgment on him who eats; for God has accepted and welcomed him.
4Who are you to pass judgment on and censure another's household servant? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he shall stand and be upheld, for the Master (the Lord) is mighty to support him and make him stand.
5One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike [sacred]. Let everyone be fully convinced (satisfied) in his own mind.
6He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.
7None of us lives to himself [but to the Lord], and none of us dies to himself [but to the Lord, for]
8If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or we die, we belong to the Lord.
9For Christ died and lived again for this very purpose, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10Why do you criticize and pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you look down upon or despise your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God.
11For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God [acknowledge Him to His honor and to His praise].(1)
12And so each of us shall give an account of himself [give an answer in reference to judgment] to God.
13Then let us no more criticize and blame and pass judgment on one another, but rather decide and endeavor never to put a stumbling block or an obstacle or a hindrance in the way of a brother.
14I know and am convinced (persuaded) as one in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is [forbidden as] essentially unclean (defiled and unholy in itself). But [none the less] it is unclean (defiled and unholy) to anyone who thinks it is unclean.
15But if your brother is being pained or his feelings hurt or if he is being injured by what you eat, [then] you are no longer walking in love. [You have ceased to be living and conducting yourself by the standard of love toward him.] Do not let what you eat hurt or cause the ruin of one for whom Christ died!
16Do not therefore let what seems good to you be considered an evil thing [by someone else]. [In other words, do not give occasion for others to criticize that which is justifiable for you.]
17[After all] the kingdom of God is not a matter of [getting the] food and drink [one likes], but instead it is righteousness (that state which makes a person acceptable to God) and [heart] peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
18He who serves Christ in this way is acceptable and pleasing to God and is approved by men.
19So let us then definitely aim for and eagerly pursue what makes for harmony and for mutual upbuilding (edification and development) of one another.
20You must not, for the sake of food, undo and break down and destroy the work of God! Everything is indeed [ceremonially] clean and pure, but it is wrong for anyone to hurt the conscience of others or to make them fall by what he eats.
21The right thing is to eat no meat or drink no wine [at all], or [do anything else] if it makes your brother stumble or hurts his conscience or offends or weakens him.
22Your personal convictions [on such matters]--exercise [them] as in God's presence, keeping them to yourself [striving only to know the truth and obey His will]. Blessed (happy, [1] to be envied) is he who has no reason to judge himself for what he approves [who does not convict himself by what he chooses to do].
23But the man who has doubts (misgivings, an uneasy conscience) about eating, and then eats [perhaps because of you], stands condemned [before God], because he is not true to his convictions and he does not act from faith. For whatever does not originate and proceed from faith is sin [whatever is done without a conviction of its approval by God is sinful].

Footnotes
Alexander Souter, Pocket Lexicon.
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JP's Mind - my blog

Captain Vegetable · Posted: Sat May 31, 2003 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Romans Chapter 14

Van · Posted: Sat May 31, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject: For the record

In looking over the posts, I see that I am still being slandered.

Here are the facts. RevJp advocated a postion that said because the soul does not join the human until birth, it did not violate God's command against killing to abort pre-born babies. I said that position was without merit.

Dshadna advocates a positon that says homosexual activity is not condemned by God. I said that postion was without merit.

I used terms like drivel, blather and bogus to describe the arguments as being nonsense. RevJp has written that to describe an argument is not an insult. Therefore I have insulted no one.

I have also implied that Dshadna is a false teacher, attempting to lead people astray and therefore Christ commands me not to be tolerant of such teachings.

Rather than respond to my positions they have attacked me, saying I am prideful, arrogant, rude and intentionally insulting.

But they do not quote me, for my words do not match their erroneous inferences as to my motives. They just make unsupported charges and back it up vague statements about the tone of the debate. Blather.

The slander is not only built on erroneous, but innocent inference, it is also built on a calculated tactic of the politics of personal destruction.

Dshadna wrote, "I do not point to you what your sins are...and I'd appreciate it if you'd please leave God to the judging, and pointing out of sins."

Now this is the same lady that said my arrogance outweights my rudness.
Clearly then, she says one thing but does another. She attacks and then charges others with attacking. This lack of integrety in her posts should make everyone reading realize that her statements are blather.

She says we should not point out her sins, yet the bible says we should do precisely that. Therefore she is a false teacher. This not an opinion, but a demonstrated fact. She would say that no one can know what the bible says, so anything goes. This standardless worldview is not of God. It is a false teaching.

Is it rude to point out error? Perhaps, but if it is, then it is no sin.
Is it arrogant to point out error? Nope. It is the job of all those that follow Christ, building up the body of Christ.