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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Being born with HIV. |
All we are doing here is pushing the violation of God's word... realistically... back to the parent. |
And that makes the child guilty?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Getting a tattoo with an infected needle. |
Raises a lot of questions... but... OK. [/quote]What? What questions does it raise that have anything to do with the subject at hand?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Marrying someone who doesn't know they have HIV. |
And how would they not know they had HIV? Sounds to me like a behavioral issue once again. [/quote]Any of these but the first (which would be obvious).
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Actively hostile intent, like people that have HIV intentionally spreading it. |
Hostile intent is not sinful?[/quote]Is the victim somehow guilty?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | nakhash wrote: | | No, no, the truth is that evolutionary theory can provide us with solutions to serious medical problems, such as cancer, |
And I see cancer has been cured because of ToE... yea? |
Trinity1 please, Do tell us what promising leads Creation Science has in the area of a cure for cancer? It isn't more pidgeon therapy is it?
Duh, I chose "The Cure for Cancer" because it is iconic, punchy, and a very modern idea which distances it conceptually from magic and religion.
If god is so medically useful, he could've provided some biblical mojo to cure afflictions humanity was ignorant of at the time.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Quote: | | Prayer doesn't stop the AIDS pandemic. |
Well, if we would all follow God's word... it would stop... now wouldn't it!?!? |
Apparently not, according to. . . YOU
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Quote: | | disease epidemics, |
And we no longer have epidemics? |
You seem to think that science is capable of stopping such things.
I don't see what's so great about god creating AIDS, the Bubonic Plague, Spanish Influenza, Smallpox, Cholera, or the ancient world's pandemics like the Antonine Plague. You're saying these are just god's way of saying, "I'm still here guys!"?
If god creates epidemics to punish mankind don't you think it would be simultaneously, more Just, more Godly, and more Biblical, if the *Holy Censor, Batman* things didn't kill as many devout christians as anyone else?
Why did god send Yellow Fever to the bible belt?
Tell me Trinity1, what role did Creation Science play in stopping the spread of the Hanta virus or SARS?
How can it help us with Avian Flu?
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Being born with HIV. |
All we are doing here is pushing the violation of God's word... realistically... back to the parent.
| Quote: | | Getting a tattoo with an infected needle. |
Raises a lot of questions... but... OK.
| Quote: | | Marrying someone who doesn't know they have HIV. |
And how would they not know they had HIV? Sounds to me like a behavioral issue once again.
| Quote: | | Actively hostile intent, like people that have HIV intentionally spreading it. |
Hostile intent is not sinful? |
Not on the part of the victim...
On top of that, you're ignoring the fact that AIDS still does spread by blood transfusion, just not in our part of the world.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Well, if we would all follow God's word... it would stop... now wouldn't it!?!? |
One thing that I overlooked is that Trinity's claim here is a trivial tautology. The antecedent can never be true, so the whole sentence can never be false.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: |
Trinity1 please, Do tell us what promising leads Creation Science has in the area of a cure for cancer? It isn't more pidgeon therapy is it?
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Strawman... blatant strawman... I am not aware of any creationist out there that would tell you this...
I am a creationist... and virtually every argument you are postulating here is absolutely false and nothing more than strawman arguments...
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Quote: | | disease epidemics, |
And we no longer have epidemics? |
You seem to think that science is capable of stopping such things. |
Look, you are the one that made the assertion that science can stop these things.. I was only pointing out a fact here... not my problem if you can't back up your arguments here.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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It isn't a straw man because you are proposing to replace evolution with what it replaced, Creationism.
Whether or not evolution is an accurate portrayal of how human beings, wolves, or algae came to exist is irrelevant Because it has so far not been falsified in any way that has not lead to a deeper understanding and strengthening of the theory. Until something happens that makes it apparent that all scientific gains from understanding of evolutionary principles has either been coincidence or illusion, the Theory of Evolution will suffice. I am attempting to scrutinize the new guy, Intelligent Design.
Creationism existed before the notion of natural selection or the Theory of Evolution. It has been replaced in the scientific community because evolution fits the evidence far better than anything else, and the predictions of the Theory of Evolution have been constantly validated by the other sciences and producing real world results.
I am simply asking the same thing of what you propose to replace evolution with, Intelligent Design/Creation Science/the Book of Genesis.
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 3:50 am Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: | | It isn't a straw man because you are proposing to replace evolution with what it replaced, Creationism. |
I am? Where?
| Quote: | | Whether or not evolution is an accurate portrayal of how human beings, wolves, or algae came to exist is irrelevant Because it has so far not been falsified in any way that has not lead to a deeper understanding and strengthening of the theory. |
You mean the fossil record as proposed by Darwin has been discovered? Did I miss memo or something?
| Quote: | | Until something happens that makes it apparent that all scientific gains from understanding of evolutionary principles has either been coincidence or illusion, the Theory of Evolution will suffice. I am attempting to scrutinize the new guy, Intelligent Design. |
Well... I'm not a big fan of ID either... and not defending it. I am, however, convinced that ToE is a fairy tale.
| Quote: | | Creationism existed before the notion of natural selection or the Theory of Evolution. It has been replaced in the scientific community because evolution fits the evidence far better than anything else, and the predictions of the Theory of Evolution have been constantly validated by the other sciences and producing real world results. |
Can you tell one prediction that ToE has made prior to a discovery... and then panned out? Remember... cite the prediction... and then the discovery. Thanks!
| Quote: | | I am simply asking the same thing of what you propose to replace evolution with, Intelligent Design/Creation Science/the Book of Genesis. |
The Book of Genesis predicts that we would find billions of dead things, found in rock layers, laid down by water, all over he world. What do find... yeah... prediction... observation. that is how science works.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
You mean the fossil record as proposed by Darwin has been discovered? |
Yes, Trinity, it most certainly has.
The point being made here is a good one. A scientific theory is only as good as how useful it is. Evolution has led to all sorts of other great scientific discoveries. Creationism has not.
So you're saying this is some kind of massive fluke? Evolution is a big lie, but it somehow keeps on giving wonderful things that are true, but creationism is true, but it never gives anything useful?
How could that possibly be the case?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| P wrote: | | but creationism is true, but it never gives anything useful? |
Sure it's true, it gave you "Scientist" something to tinker with!! 
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | P wrote: | | but creationism is true, but it never gives anything useful? |
Sure it's true, it gave you "Scientist" something to tinker with!! |
Sure, but I'm talking about scientific predictions. All of the scientific predictions made by ToE come true. This cannot be said for Creationism.
What is the likelihood that ToE is totally wrong, but that it leads to all of these great things?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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ToE, I thought Trinity said that there was nothing to that??
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | ToE, I thought Trinity said that there was nothing to that?? |
Trinity isn't exactly looking at this objectively...
Here's a simple example of what I'm talking about: if your plane ever crashes in the jungle, and you have no idea which plants are edible and which ones are poisonous, you could either rely on ToE or you could rely on creatinionism to save your skin.
If you believe in ToE, you might think something along the lines of, "We evolved from lower primates, so I'll just watch what that monkey over there is eating. Chances are that since we are so closely-related, if he can digest it, then so can I! If you bet on this theory, it would end up saving your life.
On the other hand, if you believe in creationism, then you might think something along the lines of, "God created me and he created everything here. He loves me and will guide me, so I will just eat anything that looks good and trust that God will save me." If you bet on this theory, you'll probably end up being poisoned by some toxic plant.
Do you see my point?
If you assume that ToE is true, it leads to all sorts of good scientific predictions. If you assume that creationism is true, it isn't going to make any scientific predictions that are useful to you.
One way of testing a scientific theory to see if it's good or not is to see if its predictions are good. ToE's predictions are excellent; they lead to new drugs, a better understanding of genetics, and all sorts of other things all the time. That means that ToE must be right.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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Hi "P" my post was just to get an answer from you. Very good I enjoyed
your post.
One thing tho, just because because we believe in creation doesn't make us complete idiots either! 
Ouch!! Just kidding!
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | Hi "P" my post was just to get an answer from you. Very good I enjoyed
your post.
One thing tho, just because because we believe in creation doesn't make us complete idiots either!
Ouch!! Just kidding! |
That's just it; I don't even think that you guys are idiots! There's nothing wrong with believing in creationism, but there are different versions of it. One of them is scientifically acceptable, and the other is not.
I don't understand why all creationists don't subscribe to the version which is compatible with science.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:42 pm Post subject: |
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Which was first Creation, or science?? God should have put 2 or 3 books in the bible just for you scientific guys!
| P wrote: | | One of them is scientifically acceptable, |
But this one disagrees with the bible!
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Much Love Nobby
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