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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | P#s...the Great Salt Lake...used to just be the Great Lake a few million years ago...
My point, we won't destroy the Earth...we may be destroying our own habitat, that leads to our own extinction, but the Earth will self-regulate just as it has done for millions of years....
If we adapt to the changes fast enough, we survive as a species...if not, then cockroaches will inherit the Earth  |
Sure, when we talk about 'destroying the Earth', of course what we really mean is that we're destroying the habitat.
Of course the Earth as a big rock is going to survive, and in fact, even if we had a massive nuclear war, we'd be hard-pressed to destroy ALL of the life on Earth.
Still, if we damage our habitat enough (and this is certainly what we're currently doing), we will make the Earth a much less liveable place. If the ice caps melt, the human suffering will be unprecedented in history.
Think about it:
1. All of the glaciers in the Himalayas are disappearing. This is where like 1.5 billion people get their drinking water from.
2. Population growth is exponential. When you were born, there were probably only like 3 billion people on the planet. Now there are more than 6 billion. In a couple of decades, we'll be up to 9 billion.
3. The ice caps will melt, causing the sea level to rise by several feet, thereby creating hundreds of millions of refugees (and this is not an exaggeration).
Now put all of this together. Think about what happens when we have a few thousand refugees, and what a destabilizing effect that his on surrounding countries. Now increase that to a few hundred million, take away all of the natural drinking water, and ruin the economies of the surrounding countries first so that they can't help the refugees.
It isn't going to be a picnic...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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okieguitarman
Little Hamster
Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | okieguitarman wrote: |
I stated that there is no one on this earth who knows whether this is a normal 500-1000 year cycle.[Show me someone who is 500-1000 years old on this earth and then I might listen to them]
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What kind of nonsense is this? You might as well say that there is nobody on this Earth who saw the Egyptians build the pyramids, so the pyramids don't exist.
WE HAVE ICE CORE SAMPLES DATING BACK 600,000 YEARS! When we analyze the bubbles in them, we find out EXACTLY what the atmospheric gas ratios were at any moment during that span. This tells us EXACTLY how much CO2 there was in the atmosphere at any given time, and when we compare it to the CURRENT CO2 concentrations, they are much higher than they have been at ANY point in the last 600,000 years. Therefore it is NOT a normal, natural cycle.
What are you not understanding about this?
| okieguitarman wrote: |
Man is not destroying the earth but you can continue to believe the lies of the tree huggers and earth worshippers.
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When we see pictures of the Amazon rain forest being burned down, those are just tree-huggers staging photo-ops?
Or how about this one... Here is the Larsen ice shelf in Antarctica on Jan 31st, 2002:
Here it is on March 5th, 2002:
In a matter of just a few months, it melted! It had been there for thousands of years, but now it's gone. And just so you know, this is a HUGE piece of ice. It is considerably larger than Rhode Island. You seriously think this never happened and that it's just the product of some tree-hugger's photoshopping efforts?
| okieguitarman wrote: |
SHOW ME IN THE BIBLE WHERE -MAN -IS DESTROYING THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!!! SHOW ME WHERE GOD SAYS THAT MAN IS DESTROYING THE EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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As TSS pointed out to you, there are plenty of places, but I don't know how you could possibly use this as an argument. You seem to think that if it's not in the Bible, then it's not true. There are no computers in the Bible, but you're looking at one right now. So the fact that the Bible says nothing specific about oil spills, rainforest destruction, global warming, and the ozone layer being destroyed is a completely irrelevant point.
| okieguitarman wrote: |
DO NOT EVER BEAR FALSE WITNESS AND ACCUSE ME OF SAYING THE BIBLE IS A LIE OR CALLING GOD A LIAR. |
This is EXACTLY what you are doing. Humanity IS destroying the planet, and anyone who denies this (which includes YOU) is spurning the truth. I just hope for your sake that you don't have children, because they're going to live on a much worse planet than you grew up on, and when they ask why people were so stupid and destroyed the planet, you're going to have to explain to them that it was made possible by people just like you who not only didn't do anything, but actively denied that there was a problem! |
How do you know that the Larsen shelf had been there for thousands of years? You are just believing what some scienctists are saying who are GUESSING how long it was there.
Humanity is not destroying the planet!
There is nothing new under the sun and what has been done has already been done before us.
Very poor analogy of comparing the pyramids to weather.The weather is constantly changing wheras the pyramids are SLOWLY eroding over time.We have historical documentation of what happened 3500 years ago in Egypt but do not know what the exact tempertature,humidity,and dewpoint were on Nov,1 1500 B.C.
I would be leery of anyone who quotes Bill Moyers and his socialist agenda.He is the last person I would listen to about anything.
Np wonder you are all CONFUSED about the earth and how it takes care of itsself.
The planet earth will be in fine shape 1000 years from now if it needs to be or until when God decides to put an end to this age.
God does not need our help to make the earth last.
It has been proven in northern California that toxic streams cleaned themselfs in 5 years without help from man once man stopped dumping toxic chemicals into the streams.The earth was created to care for itsself without help from man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| okieguitarman wrote: |
How do you know that the Larsen shelf had been there for thousands of years?
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It's pretty simple; the snow falls in patterns all over the world. It builds up in layers. You can literally count the layers, and thereby count the seasons, very much like you can do with a tree's rings.
| okieguitarman wrote: |
You are just believing what some scienctists are saying who are GUESSING how long it was there.
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Nope. It's scientifically sound. And what of it? Even if Larsen has only been there for 100 years, the point is that now it has melted, and it has contributed to the global rise in sea level.
And what about lake Chad... Do you have anything to say about that?
| okieguitarman wrote: |
Humanity is not destroying the planet!
There is nothing new under the sun and what has been done has already been done before us.
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You seriously think that nature and / or primitive civilizations had the chemistry necessary to create ozone-destroying CFCs?
Or to liberate all the carbon from inside the ground and put it in the atmosphere?
Or to create immense quantities of radioactive waste?
| okieguitarman wrote: |
I would be leery of anyone who quotes Bill Moyers and his socialist agenda.He is the last person I would listen to about anything.
Np wonder you are all CONFUSED about the earth and how it takes care of itsself.
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What kind of argument is this? You don't like Bill Moyers' economic views, and therefore MY environmental views are wrong?!?
| okieguitarman wrote: |
It has been proven in northern California that toxic streams cleaned themselfs in 5 years without help from man once man stopped dumping toxic chemicals into the streams.The earth was created to care for itsself without help from man. |
I AGREE! Too bad we're not stopping our pollution; it's only getting worse! Our CO2 emissions are worse than ever before, and they go up every month! If we stopped polluting, then OF COURSE the Earth could heal itself. I'm not debating that! Too bad that's a big 'if'.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7001
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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I read a study somewhere that demonstrated that bovine methane was the largest contributor to greenhouse gasses and such....
Cars are no where near as harmful as cow farts.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I read a study somewhere that demonstrated that bovine methane was the largest contributor to greenhouse gases and such....
Cars are no where near as harmful as cow farts. |
This is not true. Cows are carbon-neutral. Their carbon-laden farts go out into the atmosphere and eventually end up back in vegetation again. It's all part of the carbon cycle. It is true that methane traps more heat that CO2, but it's insignificant when you compare it to the massive amount of carbon that the oil companies have liberated from the ground during the past 150 years.
Smokers are also carbon neutral. The CO2 from their cigarettes just goes back into tobacco plants again, which are then harvested to make more cigarettes.
Cars run on on gasoline, which comes from oil. This oil has to come out of the ground. Therefore, by driving a car, you add carbon to the atmosphere which wasn't there before.
If you have a link to that study, I'd love to see it. I'm guessing it was commissioned by an oil company; they are notorious for trying to spread disinformation.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7001
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Smokers are also carbon neutral. The CO2 from their cigarettes just goes back into tobacco plants again, which are then harvested to make more cigarettes. |
Tell that to the freaks here in california, they keep passing stupid laws about smoking...
| Quote: |
If you have a link to that study, I'd love to see it. I'm guessing it was commissioned by an oil company; they are notorious for trying to spread disinformation. |
I don't have a link, I saw the report on the local news. I know it was a university study, by U.C. Davis I think...
It is doubtful that an oil company sponsored the study if you know anything about UC Davis (agricultural and medical school for the most part, very prestigious, and definitely extremely left in its corporate politics)
BTW, I really only posted this becasue I wanted to say 'cow farts'... 
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Tell that to the freaks here in california, they keep passing stupid laws about smoking...
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I don't think I've ever heard someone use global warming as an excuse to outlaw smoking... But if they ever do, you'll be able to tell them that cigarettes are carbon-neutral.
That being said, there are good reasons for limiting smoking. There is no longer any doubt that second-hand smoke causes cancer.
| RevJP wrote: |
BTW, I really only posted this becasue I wanted to say 'cow farts'... |
... and if you could figure out how to trap the cow farts and sell the natural gas, you'd make millions! 
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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Incidentally, here is what Wikipedia says on the subject:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gas
| Quote: | | The major natural greenhouse gases are water vapor, which causes about 36-70% of the greenhouse effect on Earth (not including clouds); carbon dioxide, which causes 9-26%; methane, which causes 4-9%, and ozone, which causes 3-7%. |
So yes, methane is significant, but only part of that comes from cows, so the study that you're talking about wasn't even close.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:38 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Are there any stories in the Bible in which someone shows up and warns of impending doom, only to be ignored and laughed at, and then at the end of the story the doom comes to pass? |
Er... Noah? 
Yehu
Hey! That was about ecological disaster too!
PS: Whoops, once again I post having overlooked TSS. 
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2793
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| okieguitarman wrote: | | It is arrogant for us lowly fallen mankind to think that we can do a better job than the Creator in taking care of the earth. |
Then why would God give the responsibility for managing the creation over to Adam?
(Genesis 1:26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Dominion means responsibility for the domicile.
| okieguitarman wrote: | | Generations come and go but the earth abides FOREVER. |
(Revelation 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Yehu
_________________
There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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okieguitarman
Little Hamster
Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Posts: 75
Location: Oklahoma
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| Yehushuan wrote: | | okieguitarman wrote: | | It is arrogant for us lowly fallen mankind to think that we can do a better job than the Creator in taking care of the earth. |
Then why would God give the responsibility for managing the creation over to Adam?
(Genesis 1:26) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Dominion means responsibility for the domicile.
| okieguitarman wrote: | | Generations come and go but the earth abides FOREVER. |
(Revelation 21:1) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Yehu |
Your posting of Genesis 1:26 is clear that God is describing man having control[rulership] over all the animals and birds ON the earth including the fish of the sea and NOT THE EARTH ITSSELF.
Read your own posting on Revelation 21:1. There will STILL be an earth just in a different form.[New heaven and new EARTH]
One generation passes away,and another generation comes;
But the earth abides forever.[Ecclesiastes 1:4]
What part of FOREVER do you not understand? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:26 am Post subject: |
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| okieguitarman wrote: |
Your posting of Genesis 1:26 is clear that God is describing man having control[rulership] over all the animals and birds ON the earth including the fish of the sea and NOT THE EARTH ITSSELF.
Read your own posting on Revelation 21:1. There will STILL be an earth just in a different form.[New heaven and new EARTH]
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Yes, exactly! And nobody claims that we're going to obliterate the entire planet!
Scientists are warning us that RIGHT NOW we are changing the Earth into a much less desirable form. That's the whole point of this thread. We are changing the Earth, and it's really bad!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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A thought about "An Inconvenient Truth":
I watched it on the plane ride home the other day (my second viewing, now), and I have to say, even though Al Gore has a very important message, he doesn't package it very well. He uses scientifically accurate data, but he throws in a bunch of stuff about his personal trials, which don't rally have a lot to do with his message about global warming - he's trying to get the audience to sympathize with him as a way of convincing them about his argument! This is a totally weak tactic - if you watch this movie, please keep in mind that although his packaging is not that great, the message is still fairly clear.
In particular, the ice core section, along with the 650 000 years of CO2 and temperature is really good, as are the parts about Antarctica and Greenland.
The part I find less convincing is the part about glaciers (glaciers have been receding since the last ice age. He doesn't clarify that it is the recent rate increase of this melting that is worrisome).
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1560
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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A thought on Environmentalism and Salvation:
When I was a Christian, I was of the mind that God wanted us to take care of this Earth, his gift to us. I hadn't found verses in the bible proclaming things like "thou shall protect the wildlife" or "thou shalt not sully that which I gaveth thee" explicitly, but I tied thigs together like this:
If we were granted salvation, then we would act a certain way (in accordance with God's will) - keeping the commandments, loving our enemies (if you love them, and they love you, are you really still enemies?), and so on, then essentially we would be creating a heaven here on earth - we would be saved through our own doing (though that doing would be granted us by God). So, if we are truly saved, then we are creating God's kingdom right here, so it wouldn't make sense to destroy this place - it's potentially God's future stomping grounds.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8175
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
I watched it on the plane ride home the other day (my second viewing, now), and I have to say, even though Al Gore has a very important message, he doesn't package it very well. He uses scientifically accurate data, but he throws in a bunch of stuff about his personal trials, which don't rally have a lot to do with his message about global warming - he's trying to get the audience to sympathize with him as a way of convincing them about his argument! This is a totally weak tactic - if you watch this movie, please keep in mind that although his packaging is not that great, the message is still fairly clear. |
It's really funny that you should say this! I also thought that all of his sentimental personal crap had no place in the movie. I can see why he put it in there; it puts a human face on the whole thing. Still, that part of it didn't appeal to me at all.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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