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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6796
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: Saudi Government: Friend or Foe? |
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Check it out:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/
The hard-core fundamentalists are even editing the Koran to add extra stuff about jihad being good and Jews being bad...
What kind of double-think are these guys using? Editing the Koran should be the LAST thing a fundamentalist should ever do... |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Saudi Government: Friend or Foe? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Check it out:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13804825/
The hard-core fundamentalists are even editing the Koran to add extra stuff about jihad being good and Jews being bad...
What kind of double-think are these guys using? Editing the Koran should be the LAST thing a fundamentalist should ever do... |
Friend or foe?
I'll go with the government being a friend... but the Wahabbi sect... no doubt about it... foe.
The Royal family over there is walking a fine line right now and is on the verge of collaspe. It should be interesting to see what happens when it does... can you say $100 a barrel oil.  |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: |
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Why do you get your thong in a twist when Iran supplies a few measly missiles to Hezbollah, when the British sell the Saudis Fighter Jets? The Saudis may well be allied with the US at the moment, but political power can all too easily shift to the anti-US side. So why isnt there international outrage against this?
Yet more examples of double standards, and yet more fuel to the already raging fire of hatred towards the hyprocisy of the west. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6796
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 6:31 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | Why do you get your thong in a twist when Iran supplies a few measly missiles to Hezbollah, when the British sell the Saudis Fighter Jets? The Saudis may well be allied with the US at the moment, but political power can all too easily shift to the anti-US side. So why isnt there international outrage against this? |
Because the Saudis aren't using them to kill people, whereas Hezbollah IS using their weapons to kill people.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Yet more examples of double standards, and yet more fuel to the already raging fire of hatred towards the hyprocisy of the west. |
You don't get it; our values are the most civilized on Earth. They are not perfect, but they are as good as it gets. You really are in no position to make moral judgements of "The West". We have had a reformation, and you have not. We believe in a separation between church and state, and you do not. We believe in democracy, and you do not. We believe in women's rights, and you do not. So seriously, don't criticize our civilization; yours has FAR more economic / social / ethical problems. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | Why do you get your thong in a twist when Iran supplies a few measly missiles to Hezbollah, when the British sell the Saudis Fighter Jets? |
 My thong?  Thats a classic! I suppose I ought to leave them things in my wife's dresser. Looks like I've been "outted".
Anyway... as P noted, the Saudi's aren't running F15s into Israeli airspace and killing civilians. Your sense of proportionality and applicability is NOT based in reality here.
| Quote: | | The Saudis may well be allied with the US at the moment, but political power can all too easily shift to the anti-US side. So why isnt there international outrage against this? |
Prolly because none us has in our possession an accurate crystal ball. We are supporting the Saudi's right now for the same reason we supported Iraq during the 80's.
| Quote: | | Yet more examples of double standards, and yet more fuel to the already raging fire of hatred towards the hyprocisy of the west. |
Hypocrisy??? What is more hypocritical... having fellow believers killing innocent civilians in the name of God, and not breathing a word of condemnation about it... or one running into a firefight and saving children, from a different faith (Islamic)... being awarded a Bronze Star for it... and then coming to a message board and read the words of someone who is of the same faith as those children and only smile.  |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Because the Saudis aren't using them to kill people, whereas Hezbollah IS using their weapons to kill people. |
Try reading my friend.
"The Saudis may well be allied with the US at the moment, but political power can all too easily shift to the anti-US side. So why isnt there international outrage against this?"
They know perfectly well things aren't all dandy within Saudi politics.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
You don't get it; our values are the most civilized on Earth. They are not perfect, but they are as good as it gets. You really are in no position to make moral judgements of "The West". We have had a reformation, and you have not. We believe in a separation between church and state, and you do not. We believe in democracy, and you do not. We believe in women's rights, and you do not. So seriously, don't criticize our civilization; yours has FAR more economic / social / ethical problems. |
Uh huh, I dont suppose there's any room for Free Speech in that? Or no, Im not allowed to say anything am I, because of my religion? Ah shucks.
Remember, its a long fall down from such a high horse. The west wasnt always the enlightened beacon of civilisation that you claim it is now, for the Muslims had claim to that once. Surely enough, if the tables turned once, why cant they turn again? |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Anyway... as P noted, the Saudi's aren't running F15s into Israeli airspace and killing civilians. Your sense of proportionality and applicability is NOT based in reality here. |
We would get far with such shot-sightedness wouldnt we? The very fact this thread has been raised is testament to the fact that one needs to tread carefully when dealing with the Saudis...
| Quote: | | Prolly because none us has in our possession an accurate crystal ball. We are supporting the Saudi's right now for the same reason we supported Iraq during the 80's. |
Supporting the Saudis for what, against whom? Why do the Saudi's need figher jets? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6796
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
Because the Saudis aren't using them to kill people, whereas Hezbollah IS using their weapons to kill people. |
Try reading my friend.
"The Saudis may well be allied with the US at the moment, but political power can all too easily shift to the anti-US side. So why isnt there international outrage against this?"
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I promise you the second the Saudis use their weapons in an evil way, there WILL be international outrage against it. Until then, they have every right to arm their military just like every other government on the planet does. For all we know, they are for purely defensive purposes.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
You don't get it; our values are the most civilized on Earth. They are not perfect, but they are as good as it gets. You really are in no position to make moral judgements of "The West". We have had a reformation, and you have not. We believe in a separation between church and state, and you do not. We believe in democracy, and you do not. We believe in women's rights, and you do not. So seriously, don't criticize our civilization; yours has FAR more economic / social / ethical problems. |
Uh huh, I dont suppose there's any room for Free Speech in that? Or no, Im not allowed to say anything am I, because of my religion? Ah shucks.
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Holy smokes I totally forgot free speech! We (the West) believe in free speech, and you (the Muslim World) do not. As for you not being allowed to say anything... What are you talking about? You can say whatever you want. I'm not trying to censor you. I'm just pointing out that you aren't in any position to judge western civilization, since your civilization is like half a millennium behind us in terms of social evolution.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Remember, its a long fall down from such a high horse. The west wasnt always the enlightened beacon of civilisation that you claim it is now, for the Muslims had claim to that once.
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Perhaps so, but the tenth century is over... We're talking about the here and now.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Surely enough, if the tables turned once, why cant they turn again? |
For three simple reasons:
1. The West has all the power on the planet, and there's no way they're going to give any of it up without a fight.
2. The Muslim world is socially backwards. Lack of democracy, lack of women's rights, lack of separation between church and state, lack of free speech, and lack of free expression mean that you can't compete with the West, since we have all of these things and you don't.
3. Pretty much all Muslim economies are based on oil, and it is running out. If anything, you're going to get poorer rather than gain the wealth needed to challenge the hegemony of the West. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
I promise you the second the Saudis use their weapons in an evil way, there WILL be international outrage against it. Until then, they have every right to arm their military just like every other government on the planet does. For all we know, they are for purely defensive purposes. |
Was that the policy on Saddam? Outrage only when he used the chemical weapons he was supplied with?
So I would assume Iran also has "every right to arm their military just like every other government on the planet does", including but not limited to the development of nuclear arms?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Holy smokes I totally forgot free speech! We (the West) believe in free speech, and you (the Muslim World) do not. As for you not being allowed to say anything... What are you talking about? You can say whatever you want. I'm not trying to censor you. I'm just pointing out that you aren't in any position to judge western civilization, since your civilization is like half a millennium behind us in terms of social evolution.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Remember, its a long fall down from such a high horse. The west wasnt always the enlightened beacon of civilisation that you claim it is now, for the Muslims had claim to that once.
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Perhaps so, but the tenth century is over... We're talking about the here and now.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Surely enough, if the tables turned once, why cant they turn again? |
For three simple reasons:
1. The West has all the power on the planet, and there's no way they're going to give any of it up without a fight.
2. The Muslim world is socially backwards. Lack of democracy, lack of women's rights, lack of separation between church and state, lack of free speech, and lack of free expression mean that you can't compete with the West, since we have all of these things and you don't.
3. Pretty much all Muslim economies are based on oil, and it is running out. If anything, you're going to get poorer rather than gain the wealth needed to challenge the hegemony of the West. |
Surely such descriptions would have been attributable to Europe in the Dark Ages. And look how things have changed.
Muslim countries haven't had their independance for very long - adaptation after such a long period of time is only normal. Sit tight my friend. We can only wait and see.  |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | Supporting the Saudis for what, against whom? Why do the Saudi's need figher jets? |
Three words:
Syria/Iraq/Iran |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: | | Supporting the Saudis for what, against whom? Why do the Saudi's need figher jets? |
Three words:
Syria/Iraq/Iran |
Oh how could I forget...arming Muslim nations with weapons to kill other Muslim nations, as if we needed more bloodshed. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
Oh how could I forget...arming Muslim nations with weapons to kill other Muslim nations, as if we needed more bloodshed. |
Did we sell F15s to Syria?
Did we sell F15s to Iraq?
Did we sell F15s to Iran?
You asked why the Saudi's wanted the F15s... I told you. The Russians were selling MiGs to the aforementioned countries and the Saudi's thought it might be a good idea if they had a few of their own just in case on of them decided to invade them.. like... oh... I don't know... perhaps... Kuwait! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6796
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
Was that the policy on Saddam? Outrage only when he used the chemical weapons he was supplied with?
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Nope, the Reagan administration (aka the current Bush administration) didn't bat an eyelash when Saddam used chemical weapons on his people during the 80s. There wasn't an iota of outrage in the U.S.
But then again, I don't support the Bush administration. I think they are the least civilized Western leaders around. In fact, I would go even further; they should all be put on trial for crimes against humanity.
But none of this changes the fact that Western society is the most civilized on the planet. Remember that I'm not claiming that it's perfect.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
So I would assume Iran also has "every right to arm their military just like every other government on the planet does", including but not limited to the development of nuclear arms?
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Nope. They can arm their military with conventional weapons if they want, but it would be pretty stupid of the world to let them have nuclear weapons. If you haven't noticed, Ahmadinejad is crazy...
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Surely such descriptions would have been attributable to Europe in the Dark Ages. And look how things have changed.
Muslim countries haven't had their independance for very long - adaptation after such a long period of time is only normal. Sit tight my friend. We can only wait and see. |
Well, in that case you have your work cut out for you as a Muslim. You need to get out there and start a reformation going asap.
Good luck getting them to remove that stuff about women only being worth 60% as much as a man in the Koran... |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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You know... I was just thinking about this...
Tiptronic... I'll bet you are a Shia Muslim... tell me I'm wrong. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6796
Location: Victoria, Canada
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