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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: A Gay Christian? Listen Before You Speak! |
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www.jesusmcc.org
Listen to a sermon or two before you harden your heart and shut out God's continuing revelations. God is not stuck in time like some of us are:) |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1749
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Appreciate the link.
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | Appreciate the link. |
What did you think of the link? (Rhyme intended:)) |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:36 am Post subject: |
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Most fundamentalists don't know what to do when they see people who
Talk like good Christians
Help people like good Christians and
Go to church like good Christians but
believe in the inclusion of, women, blacks, and most recently homosexuals and transgenders.
Though out history the old fogies of religion have tried to prohibit all of these people from having a normal role in the church community. They get confused when they see all the real hallmarks of a good Christian in addition to love and inclusion toward a social class they give only hate and derision.
For this reason, you will not get much of a response from these fundamentalist hate-mongers. They don't know what to say.
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"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: | Most fundamentalists don't know what to do when they see people who
Talk like good Christians
Help people like good Christians and
Go to church like good Christians but
believe in the inclusion of, women, blacks, and most recently homosexuals and transgenders.
Though out history the old fogies of religion have tried to prohibit all of these people from having a normal role in the church community. They get confused when they see all the real hallmarks of a good Christian in addition to love and inclusion toward a social class they give only hate and derision.
For this reason, you will not get much of a response from these fundamentalist hate-mongers. They don't know what to say. |
Well, fortunately, not all christians are like you say. It will just take some longer to realize that God is love and love is God. So, whomever is doing the loving, regardless of gender, race, religion is of God and God dwells in them. God is love is simple to understand. Then again, maybe not apparently:( |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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For starters, ekspiulo is completely off his rocker in the assumptions he makes of the membership here. Not really appreciating the insinuation of hatemongering BTW.
Secondly, I haven't had time to listen and read everything I wish to from the site, so I haven't formed a reply as of yet.
Thirdly; summertime you say: I | Quote: | | t will just take some longer to realize that God is love and love is God. So, whomever is doing the loving, regardless of gender, race, religion is of God and God dwells in them. God is love is simple to understand. |
You leave out, quite noticibly that God is Justice as well, and righteousness, and holiness. If God, being Perfect Love, Perfect Justice, Perfect Righteousness and Perfect Holiness declares that something is an abomination, how then can we say that said thing is acceptable to Him?
I wonder if you have scripture that tells us that anything done in love is acceptable to God?
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | For starters, ekspiulo is completely off his rocker in the assumptions he makes of the membership here. Not really appreciating the insinuation of hatemongering BTW.
Secondly, I haven't had time to listen and read everything I wish to from the site, so I haven't formed a reply as of yet.
Thirdly; summertime you say: I | Quote: | | t will just take some longer to realize that God is love and love is God. So, whomever is doing the loving, regardless of gender, race, religion is of God and God dwells in them. God is love is simple to understand. |
You leave out, quite noticibly that God is Justice as well, and righteousness, and holiness. If God, being Perfect Love, Perfect Justice, Perfect Righteousness and Perfect Holiness declares that something is an abomination, how then can we say that said thing is acceptable to Him?
I wonder if you have scripture that tells us that anything done in love is acceptable to God? |
We've had this abomination talk already. If you dont' get my point in regards to context then continuous talk on the subject seems never ending and seemingly doing no good. I tire of repetition. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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I agree summertime. But what you have failed to do is demonstrate how your percieved context alters the truth.
You say 'context' but you have nothing to base it on. There is nothing within the passages in question which demonstrates any context that may make a twisting of the scripture in question reasonable.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | For starters, ekspiulo is completely off his rocker in the assumptions he makes of the membership here. Not really appreciating the insinuation of hatemongering BTW. |
I don't see where he was talking about the membership here specifically 
| RevJP wrote: | | You say 'context' but you have nothing to base it on. There is nothing within the passages in question which demonstrates any context that may make a twisting of the scripture in question reasonable. |
Correct. This is why saying that "normal" homosexual relationships are an abomination is unreasonable — it is a twisting of what the text actually says.
Leviticus 18:22 prohibits ritual homosexual sex, hence its placement among other ritual prohibitions. The word commonly translated "abomination" is used again about homosexuality in Leviticus 20:13, for unclean food in Deuteronomy 14:3, idol worship in Isaiah 41:24, and remarriage in 24:4.
The same word is used in Deuteronomy 23:18: You must never bring the pay of a female prostitute or the wage of a male prostitute into the temple of the Lord your God in fulfillment of any vow, for both of these are abhorrent to the Lord your God.
It's one thing to say that the Bible forbids ritual homosexual sex — it does. It does not forbid homosexual relationships.
Of course, the New Testament has some choice words on the matter, but they're irrelevant. Jesus didn't say them, therefore they could easily have been later misinterpretations. Wouldn't be the first time someone's used the Bible to justify their prejudices.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I agree summertime. But what you have failed to do is demonstrate how your percieved context alters the truth.
You say 'context' but you have nothing to base it on. There is nothing within the passages in question which demonstrates any context that may make a twisting of the scripture in question reasonable. |
You may not read ALL of what I write to you. The bible is not going to always spell things out for you in black and white. Meaning, you are not always going to see the words "it's okay" on the pages of the bible so you can point to them and say, "See! See! Here it is in black and white!" Context helps when it does not do that. You are specifically looking for the ACTUAL words that says homosexual relationships are okay. Does the bible have to list every animal in creation in order for you to know they are in existence? That would be too easy for you if all things were spelled out so easily for you (us). |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
I wonder if you have scripture that tells us that anything done in love is acceptable to God? |
That's not necessary. I never said anything done in love is acceptable to God. We are talking about same sex relationships, not anything. But, yes, intentions and motives are important things to consider in ones life. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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No summertime, it is quite the opposite. I have looked for any context that indicates that homosexual sex would be okay in any instance - there just isn't any.
FFT, I refer to this last line by eskibbubub.. whatever:
| Quote: | | For this reason, you will not get much of a response from these fundamentalist hate-mongers. They don't know what to say. |
I simply understood that to mean that he was not referring to the fundamentalist hate mongers out in the world but the ones that apparently are members of this board.
FFT; there is nothing referring to ritual homosexual sex in that chapter. It clearly states a variety of sexual activities one is NOT to engage in as well as other activities.
Leviticus 18:1-30 AMP AND THE Lord said to Moses, (2) Say to the Israelites, I am the Lord your God. (3) You shall not do as was done in the land of Egypt in which you dwelt, nor shall you do as is done in the land of Canaan to which I am bringing you; neither shall you walk in their statutes. (4) You shall do My ordinances and keep My statutes and walk in them. I am the Lord your God. (5) You shall therefore keep My statutes and My ordinances which, if a man does, he shall live by them. I am the Lord. [Luke 10:25-28; Rom. 10:4, 5; Gal. 3:12.] (6) None of you shall approach anyone close of kin to him to have sexual relations. I am the Lord. (7) The nakedness of your father, which is the nakedness of your mother, you shall not uncover; she is your mother; you shall not have intercourse with her. (8) The nakedness of your father's wife you shall not uncover; it is your father's nakedness. (9) You shall not have intercourse with or uncover the nakedness of your sister, the daughter of your father or of your mother, whether born at home or born abroad. (10) You must not have sexual relations with your son's daughter or your daughter's daughter; their nakedness you shall not uncover, for they are your own flesh. (11) You must not have intercourse with your father's wife's daughter; begotten by your father, she is your sister; you shall not uncover her nakedness. (12) You shall not have intercourse with your father's sister; she is your father's near kinswoman. (13) You shall not have sexual relations with your mother's sister, for she is your mother's near kinswoman. (14) You shall not have intercourse with your father's brother's wife; you shall not approach his wife; she is your aunt. (15) You shall not uncover the nakedness of your daughter-in-law; she is your son's wife; you shall not have intercourse with her. (16) You shall not have intercourse with your brother's wife; she belongs to your brother. (17) You shall not marry a woman and her daughter, nor shall you take her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter to have intercourse; they are [her] near kinswomen; it is wickedness and an outrageous offense. (18) You must not marry a woman in addition to her sister, to be a rival to her, having sexual relations with the second sister when the first one is alive. (19) Also you shall not have intercourse with a woman during her [menstrual period or similar] uncleanness. (20) Moreover, you shall not lie carnally with your neighbor's wife, to defile yourself with her. (21) You shall not give any of your children to pass through the fire and sacrifice them to Molech [the fire god], nor shall you profane the name of your God [by giving it to false gods]. I am the Lord. (22) You shall not lie with a man as with a woman; it is an abomination. [I Cor. 6:9, 10.] (23) Neither shall you lie with any beast and defile yourself with it; neither shall any woman yield herself to a beast to lie with it; it is confusion, perversion, and degradedly carnal. (24) Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, for in all these things the nations are defiled which I am casting out before you. (25) And the land is defiled; therefore I visit the iniquity of it upon it, and the land itself vomits out her inhabitants. (26) So you shall keep My statutes and My ordinances and shall not commit any of these abominations, neither the native-born nor any stranger who sojourns among you, (27) For all these abominations have the men of the land done who were before you, and the land is defiled-- (28) [Do none of these things] lest the land spew you out when you defile it as it spewed out the nation that was before you. (29) Whoever commits any of these abominations shall be cut off from among [his] people. (30) So keep My charge: do not practice any of these abominable customs which were practiced before you and defile yourselves by them. I am the Lord your God.
I understand that some WANT to blend verse 21 with 22 and say they are combined and that only gay sex while worshipping Molech is an abomination, but linguistically, literally, and grammatically that is not a correct reading of the passage.
The word used there as in other areas as you have pointed out means abomination or abhorrence.
and there is really no way to misinterpret (or re-interpret) this passage:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 AMP Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality, (10) Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.
| Quote: | | It's one thing to say that the Bible forbids ritual homosexual sex — it does. It does not forbid homosexual relationships. |
I agree completely, and I have never stated otherwise. If it is your intent to suggest I have I suppose I have to challenge you to demonstrate where I have done so.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
| Quote: | | It's one thing to say that the Bible forbids ritual homosexual sex — it does. It does not forbid homosexual relationships. |
I agree completely, and I have never stated otherwise. If it is your intent to suggest I have I suppose I have to challenge you to demonstrate where I have done so. |
Are you saying, Rev, that you agree that the bible does forbid ritual homosexual sex while it does not forbid homosexual relationship? 'Relationships' meaning loving, committed ones like their heterosexual counterparts. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | committed ones like their heterosexual counterparts |
I hesitate to answer this loaded question, but for the most part I agree, until you try to slip in the having sex part. I would agree that a loving, committed, sexless homosexual relationship is okay.
Again, have I ever said anything other than that?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7650
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | committed ones like their heterosexual counterparts |
I hesitate to answer this loaded question, but for the most part I agree, until you try to slip in the having sex part. I would agree that a loving, committed, sexless homosexual relationship is okay.
Again, have I ever said anything other than that? |
Is hand-holding allowed? What about kissing? Heavy petting?
Where do you draw the line?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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