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theseldomscene
Banned

Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject:

i think it is wonderful that the free press is doing the right thing and publishing all that they can get their hands on...and they must...never let the gov. silence any from printing anything that the gov writes...it is the furor's job to protect his vile secrets...not the press...it is the job of the press to inform the people and the world of all the truth they can find that comes from any gov and about any gov... the freedom of the press is on of the most important things a citizen has...i would hate to see them lose it to the minds of hate and oppression that currently run the white house....or any administration for that matter... print it all...expose their lying evils....the truth shall set you free...

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Gee, big surprise...

Trinity1 wrote:

Ok.. here we have classified report being leaked to the press, which is illegal... this alone doesn't seem to bother anyone anymore as this comes along with the leaks about our eavesdropping, Cheney's home address, etc...

Interesting, but completely irrelevant to the discussion. Who leaked this report has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the report is true.

It is true.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Gee, big surprise...

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Interesting, but completely irrelevant to the discussion. Who leaked this report has exactly nothing to do with whether or not the report is true.
It is true.

We will indeed see if it is in fact true or not. It looks like Bush is going to allow the declassification of parts of this report so we can all get a looksy at the context of what has been written here. ARTICLE

Also, I suspect that there is a reason what he is having this report declassified... perhaps only the excerpts, taken out of context, were leaked. It appears that those Democrats that raced to the microphone are no doing a full retreat of their earlier assertions ( HERE ) by clambering for a closed hearing on this issue... Laughing

. I can hear it all now... "Karl Rove leaked it so we would all look stupid and partisan". Laughing

This is going to be hilarious!
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

Another article showing that the level of global terror threats has increased because of the Iraq War: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aFWiBhMf9aIQ&refer=us _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Blaise Pascal "...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..." -Steven Weinberg "I would bless my children with your destruction instead." -Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:03 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Another article showing that the level of global terror threats has increased because of the Iraq War:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aFWiBhMf9aIQ&refer=us

Funny... I thought the report demonstrated that Iraq is indeed the central battle field for the war on terror... once the context of it all became public... not just the bits and pieces that some leftist felon decided should be leaked... and I'm sure if we hadn't gone into Iraq... there wouldn't be any recruitment for terrorists going on today either Rolling Eyes

_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:47 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Everyone agrees that there would still be recruitment for terrorists. There would just be less of it. Iraq has given crazy Muslims everywhere a great recruiting slogan.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 8:53 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Everyone agrees that there would still be recruitment for terrorists. There would just be less of it. Iraq has given crazy Muslims everywhere a great recruiting slogan.

Crazy Muslims from everywhere need more a 'slogan' than 'its in the Koran'. Before Iraq it was our presence in Saudi Arabia. From there... Somalia... Afghanistan... it doesn't matter where we are or what we do P.... and this is the point you simply don't understand or can not comprehend... as long as we support Israel... there will never be any peace with these radicals. Never.

Their hatred runs too deep and is the only uniting factor among Arabs and Muslims. I have repeatedly discussed this. Until we stop supporting Israel and ALL convert to Islam... there will never ever never be any peace... there will always be those trying to spread their religion through the point of a gun or through violence. Until we make that almost unbearable for them, the governments that support or harbor them, and the people who make it permissible that they live unencumbered among them.... will continue to look the other way. As sad or sorry as that sounds, it is the truth... privately... I honestly believe Bush understands that... of course publicly, he has to embrace moderate Muslims... all the while biting his tongue. But he understands what these people are about. If you want a classic example of this… look no further than what they are saying about the Pope right now. ANY criticism is met with… “death to the infidel”.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:53 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Trinity, I AGREE with all of this. The crazy Muslims will be crazy no matter what and will always find SOME excuse to try to kill Americans / Westerners / Israelis. I am not disputing that AT ALL.

What I AM saying is that by attacking Iraq, we have given them a MUCH better recruiting slogan than they otherwise would have had. It's pretty hard to recruit suicide bombers by saying, "The Americans attacked Somalia, so now come blow yourself up!". It's a WHOLE LOT easier saying, "The Americans have attacked and occupied some of our holy land and they are killing good Muslims who look and act and believe exactly what you believe, so now come blow yourself up!".

Do you agree that the second is a better recruitment slogan than the first?

And this is exactly what I (and the report) are saying; the Iraq war is helping the crazy Muslims recruit.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

RevJP
Moderator

Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005

Location: USA

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 9:59 am Post subject:

Trin wrote:

Their hatred runs too deep and is the only uniting factor among Arabs and Muslims. I have repeatedly discussed this. Until we stop supporting Israel and ALL convert to Islam... there will never ever never be any peace.

Excellent, accurate, and valid point.

Quote:

I honestly believe Bush understands that... of course publicly, he has to embrace moderate Muslims... all the while biting his tongue. But he understands what these people are about.

You are exactly right. Interestingly, Clinton and Bush Sr. understood this as well, the differences are that Bush Sr. thought that a show of compassion after stepping in and stopping some of the jihad stupidity would ease the hatred - He was wrong. Clinton took a different approach, he avoided the whole thing, thought that if he pretended the problem didn't exist then it would fade away (kinda like ignoring a pest). The problem there was that the threat kept growing, it manifested itself numerous times and he swated at it and then ignored it and let it grow and fester until 9/11.

G.W. took a completely different tack - when faced with a pest that will not go away, you strike it down. No one gives the man credit for standing up and saying 'we will not lie back and let this monstrosity roam free any longer'. In fact, he was clear and honest enough to tell the american public from the begining that this struggle would be arduous (people forget that he told them that from the begining). Granted, the military presence in Iraq has drug on longer than expected, but that is only part of the deal, we would have been fighting continually on other fronts anyway until the rats were flushed and the nest was destroyed.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:53 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

What I AM saying is that by attacking Iraq, we have given them a MUCH better recruiting slogan than they otherwise would have had.

Let me ask you a question then... what is going to happen when this democracy in Iraq takes hold and is able to deal with these thugs themselves... and we leave? When we are successful?

What is that going to do to their recruiting then?

Quote:

Do you agree that the second is a better recruitment slogan than the first?

No... I agree that the slogan "Well... we were handed our ass in Iraq... but now we have another plan..." won't draw 1/100th of the folks it is getting now or before we invaded... that is what I believe!

Quote:

And this is exactly what I (and the report) are saying; the Iraq war is helping the crazy Muslims recruit.

And I'm saying they didn't have a problem before because no one would stand up to them... now, there is a price to pay... and if that price can be demonstrated in them losing this fight... their recruiting will be all the much harder.

However... if we cut and run now... you have no earthly idea what hell on earth will be like. We think they were emboldened by Somalia... just picture what would happen if we let Iraq go. Look at what happened with the Soviets in Afghanistan? You want that same thing here in the west? I would hope not. But if we let this go... now... based on what history has taught us... woe unto us my friend.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Let me ask you a question then... what is going to happen when this democracy in Iraq takes hold and is able to deal with these thugs themselves... and we leave? When we are successful?

I hope you are right. Modern political science tells us that Democracy is not something that you can force onto people; it has to evolve by itself. I hope you are right.

Trinity1 wrote:

Again, I hope that you are right, but it is far from clear that you are. If America were to absolutely destroy every major Muslim city in the Middle East with Nuclear weapons (and no, I'm not saying you should), then I agree that it would break the spirit of resistance against the West in the region. It is totally unclear whether tiny little drawn-out fights like Iraq, even if won by America, are the smack-down that you're looking for.

Right now the message from Iraq is that Islamic fundamentalists when employing dirty tactics, stand a fighting chance against American soldiers who have one hand tied behind their backs because they have lawyers telling them what they are and are not allowed to do.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:32 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Right now the message from Iraq is that Islamic fundamentalists when employing dirty tactics, stand a fighting chance against American soldiers who have one hand tied behind their backs because they have lawyers telling them what they are and are not allowed to do.

Along with every pundant in the world... especially from the left leaning political spectrum... along with those who post on message boards. Wink

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:13 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Along with every pundant in the world... especially from the left leaning political spectrum... along with those who post on message boards. Wink

Hey, I'd be happy if the U.S. used harsher tactics with terrorists. Don't look at me!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 6:48 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Hey, I'd be happy if the U.S. used harsher tactics with terrorists. Don't look at me!

Huh? I'd have to go back through here and look... but weren't you upset with some of the interogation techniques we are employing?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Hey, I'd be happy if the U.S. used harsher tactics with terrorists. Don't look at me!

Huh? I'd have to go back through here and look... but weren't you upset with some of the interogation techniques we are employing?

I'm not saying you guys should torture people. Having black prisons and stuff is stupid, because it makes you look so evil. That's Gestapo and gulag stuff. You want to avoid making yourself look like some of the super-evil governments that existed during the last 100 years.

What I favor is using SMARTER tactics against the terrorists. In some cases this might involve using more force, but I think that the harshest tactic of all (short of nuking them) would be to shift your economy away from oil. All of a sudden, there would be no dependence on foreign oil.

And this would easily be possible if you just started mass producing electric cars... The Middle East would be totally insignificant within 20 years, and Muslim terorrists would lose much of their power base. Without oil money, they'd be too busy scrounging for food to have time to even think about attacking America. They'd be about as capable of mounting a campaign against America as sub-Saharan Africa currently is.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

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