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Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:15 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

1. Continued to allow Saddam to fire ADA at our jets patrolling a UN mandated and enforced no fly zone?

You don't need ground troops to take out some anti-aircraft batteries. If he was shooting at U.S. planes, they should have hit back hard.

Eventually... one of those missiles is going to find its mark... and we are going to lose a plane and/or pilot over Iraq... then what?

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

2. Allowed Saddam to continue to bride member countries of the UN security council to get the sanctions lifted... thus enabling him to continue to fund terrorism?

We already know that he had nothing to do with the Sept. 11th terrorists. If anything, he was causing problems for the Israelis, and last I checked, the lives of American troops should not be used to defend Israel. That is what Israeli troops are for.

You are not even addressing the point... he would have been out of that box we had put him in... and could have then done whatever the heck he wanted.

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

3. Continue to violate numerous other UN resolutions... even the last one stating that... 'severe consequences will result if he did not comply'... what good is the UN to begin with when it does not back up what it says?

Yes, if the alternative is half-trillion dollar mess that we've got now... Enforcing U.N. resolutions is not worth that many lives and that much money.

What is more important... peace... or money? Can you put a price on living in peace and security? How about the worth of a human life?

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

4. Continue to import arms from UN Security Council member nations in violation of UN Security Council mandated sanctions against their prohibition.

Yes, if the alternative is half-trillion dollar mess that we've got now... Enforcing U.N. resolutions is not worth that many lives and that much money. Besides, Saddam was a little fish after the first Gulf war. He was not dangerous anymore.

Rearming himself... in violation of the very sanctions these permanent member nations (ones with veto power ) does not even bother you? Wow... Confused or disgusted

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

5. Terrorize its own citizenry without so much as a raised eyelash by those purporting to have their citizens best interest at heart when criticizing our own military for ‘war crimes’.

Let's not forget that the Bush / Reagan administration didn't bat an eyelash when Saddam gassed his own people during the 80s.

They did... I'll try to dig up their condemnation later today....

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

6. Allow Saddam… in a post 9/11 world… to operate unfettered and get WMD (which he had demonstrated the capacity to use) to terrorist organization (which had had demonstrated to support and fund) would have been an impeachment hearing just waiting to happen with the very next domestic attack whether he was involved or not.

This is the big one. First of all, let's stop calling them WMDs. Nobody cares about chemical or biological weapons.

Wrong... people do care about WMD... whether they are nuclear or otherwise.... they are scary weapons that kill you through the most heinous processes...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337

Location: Memphis

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:31 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Eventually... one of those missiles is going to find its mark... and we are going to lose a plane and/or pilot over Iraq... then what?

If we ever lose a plane over Iraq, the pilot deserved to die anyway. Do you even keep up with what they're flying?

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:25 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Eventually... one of those missiles is going to find its mark... and we are going to lose a plane and/or pilot over Iraq... then what?

If we ever lose a plane over Iraq, the pilot deserved to die anyway. Do you even keep up with what they're flying?

Actually... it is part of my job to stay abreast of the aviation industry... and yes... partly what our military is flying... Laughing

These guys weren’t flying Raptors…

To say that a pilot who gets shot down 'deserves it' pretty much tells me where your starting point on this subject is. Confused or disgusted

There is no 'full safe' defense to ADA. Whether or not our technology for avoidance or stealth... or otherwise is centuries ahead of Iraqi technology is irrelevant... you can take a plane down with a 7.62 round for Pete's sake. The point is/was... it only takes one shot... one lucky shot... and they were taking them daily.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337

Location: Memphis

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:37 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

To say that a pilot who gets shot down 'deserves it' pretty much tells me where your starting point on this subject is. Confused or disgusted

Hardly, at least not in the sense that you intend. The level of air superiority we have over Iraq boggles the mind. Any pilot that manages to get shot down must have had it coming.

I'm not saying that pilots deserve to die, at all, despite how much you appear to love reinterpreting what I say.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:02 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

To say that a pilot who gets shot down 'deserves it' pretty much tells me where your starting point on this subject is. Confused or disgusted

Hardly, at least not in the sense that you intend. The level of air superiority we have over Iraq boggles the mind. Any pilot that manages to get shot down must have had it coming.
I'm not saying that pilots deserve to die, at all, despite how much you appear to love reinterpreting what I say.

I'm not reinterpretating anything... I knew exactly that you were referring to either their ineptness or them making a stupid move... never mind the actual facts here... that it is an Army... following its own ROE... despite knowing that it violates international law... mandated sanctions imposed through its own provocations... you are blaming our own pilots before you even consider the obvious... THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT! Your starting point is to blame our own soldiers and airmen (in this case) before you consider that fact that it could very well be a lucky shot... in violation of international law.

Also, when you speak of air superiority, to act as if it is the be all to end all... you are simply mistaken... there is no substitute for 'boots on the ground'. Anyway, the proper term is Air Supremacy... but hey... I'm the one who doesn't know what he is talking about... anyway... an aircraft... like... lets say and F15 has a gazillion moving parts in it... most of which are meant to make it fly... and lets say... someone sitting in a foxhole just happens to see it come in a few hundred feet off the deck... fires a short burst of 7.62... (or even a fire team at that) now you have three or four the times of lead in the air at the same time... and bam... you just hit the compressor for the turbine... knocked out the main bearing.... down goes the jet... whose fault is it now?

Can you ever think objectively about these things... or do I have to keep interjecting facts here to refute your silly assertions?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337

Location: Memphis

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:45 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

you are blaming our own pilots before you even consider the obvious... THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!

What?

How can I blame pilots for dying over Iraq when none of them have, exactly?

Trinity1 wrote:

Your starting point is to blame our own soldiers and airmen (in this case) before you consider that fact that it could very well be a lucky shot... in violation of international law.

Because we're talking about ridiculous odds. You know, odds on the level of abiogenesis, making them completely impossible, right?

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

you are blaming our own pilots before you even consider the obvious... THAT IS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!

What?

How can I blame pilots for dying over Iraq when none of them have, exactly?

*SIGH* You said they would deserve it... if they got shot down... and my point was no... they would not deserve getting shot down... then you said I was assuming... momma mia...

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Your starting point is to blame our own soldiers and airmen (in this case) before you consider that fact that it could very well be a lucky shot... in violation of international law.

Because we're talking about ridiculous odds. You know, odds on the level of abiogenesis, making them completely impossible, right?

I would agree that the odds are pretty high... but not impossibly high... like abiogenesis. Wink

_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337

Location: Memphis

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:58 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

*SIGH* You said they would deserve it... if they got shot down... and my point was no... they would not deserve getting shot down... then you said I was assuming... momma mia...

Because it's not going to happen Rolling Eyes

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Eventually... one of those missiles is going to find its mark... and we are going to lose a plane and/or pilot over Iraq... then what?

And therefore we should invade Iraq with thousands upon thousands of ground troops? To save the lives of a handful of airmen who MIGHT get killed in the future by missiles that Saddam MIGHT shoot at them?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:57 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Rearming himself... in violation of the very sanctions these permanent member nations (ones with veto power ) does not even bother you? Wow... Confused or disgusted

Saddam WASN'T rearming himself in any serious way! His country was destroyed! He had no money! He didn't have the resources needed for rearming his country!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:19 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

*SIGH* You said they would deserve it... if they got shot down... and my point was no... they would not deserve getting shot down... then you said I was assuming... momma mia...

Because it's not going to happen Rolling Eyes

Well... you absolutely got this one right. The Iraqi Army is not going to be shooting down or shooting at our planes anymore... now will they?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:26 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Eventually... one of those missiles is going to find its mark... and we are going to lose a plane and/or pilot over Iraq... then what?

P... all I was doing was listing one of the SEVERAL reasons of why we needed to go in there. This was only one of them. If it were this one alone... all we would have had to do was make a few runs at his palaces and it would have been game over... however, our plans were flying legally in these zones... North and South... and were fired upon almost daily... this could not have gone on indefinitely without someone getting off a lucky shot. It was only a matter of time.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:35 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Rearming himself... in violation of the very sanctions these permanent member nations (ones with veto power ) does not even bother you? Wow... Confused or disgusted

Saddam WASN'T rearming himself in any serious way!

If you are talking about tanks and artillery... sure... no, people would notice things like that. Shoulder fired ADA... yup... saw the crates myself. Problem was/is... they were empty. French made... marked Syria... violation of the sanctions imposed by both the Iraqi's... but more importantly the French... it is disgusting that they have veto power on that council!

Quote:

His country was destroyed! He had no money! He didn't have the resources needed for rearming his country!

Yet he still had enough money to build several palaces, bribe members of the UN Security Council, and issue contracts on oil fields in his country once the sanctions were lifted... He had plenty of money. The people didn't have anything... but the Baath Party members lived like fat cats while 95% of the country suffered!
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 7:08 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

I agree, but that doesn't mean that he had the resources needed to build nuclear weapons.

Here are two facts that are absolutely true and cannot be denied:

1. The Iraqi scientists to this day don't know how to build implosion-style plutonium bombs (these are the cheapest nuclear bombs to build).

2. Building uranium-gun nuclear bombs is trivial, but the uranium is OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive. The entire budget of Iraq would not have been sufficient for building a uranium bomb.

Bottom line: The prospect of Saddam building a nuclear bomb and using it or selling it to terrorists was IMPOSSIBLE. And the White House knew this. You think they don't have nuclear experts? They have the best nuclear experts on the planet, and every single one of them would tell you exactly what I am telling you here.

In other words, when Rumsfeld and Cheney and everyone else in the administration was on EVERY SINGLE morning program in America talking about "mushroom clouds" where Manhattan used to be, they were TELLING LIES.

And when they were saying that there were concrete links between Saddam and Al Quaeda, they were TELLING LIES.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337

Location: Memphis

Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:42 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Well... you absolutely got this one right. The Iraqi Army is not going to be shooting down or shooting at our planes anymore... now will they?

You think any of the guys that'd be shooting at our planes have any experience doing so that would help them figure out how much they'd need to lead by?

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