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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | So there's either good or evil, no neutrality whatsoever? It's perfectly black or white? |
Spiritually? Yes. We are either in the light or not. We are either looked upon by God or not. If we are not in Him then all we do is as filthy rags, all our works are as offal to Him, so without the illumination of His spirit nothing else makes one bit of difference. |
Isn't there something in the Bible about the righteous heathen? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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FFT, since RevJP apparantly has me on ignore, I was wondering if you could do me a favor and ask him a question concerning 1 John 2:9.
"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now."
Isn't this suggesting that one can be in darkness and light simultaneously?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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| Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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Hi RevJP,
| Quote: | Quote:
So there's either good or evil, no neutrality whatsoever? It's perfectly black or white?
Spiritually? Yes. We are either in the light or not. We are either looked upon by God or not. If we are not in Him then all we do is as filthy rags, all our works are as offal to Him, so without the illumination of His spirit nothing else makes one bit of difference. |
I have to play devil's advocate here, Rev. First, I think it's a very common mistake today to divide philosophy from theology the way many do. The popular idea among Christians seems to be 'theology good, philosophy bad'. I believe the proper division was established by Aristotle in manichean (sp?) ethics, the distinction between descriptive reality (that which pertains to time, space and matter) and prescriptive reality (that which pertains to the incorporeal or spiritual). What I'm saying is that philosophical metaphysics is very much an inquiry into prescriptive truth, as is theology [though both only theoretically so]. There's philosophy which is based upon truth--the same objective prescriptive Truth IMO as that theology which we call "true". Sometimes both spin off down false paths....there's lots of false theology and philosophy, that which has its ground in falsity more than truth. But I don't think it's accurate to say theology is 'better' or more accurate in truth matters than philosophy except of course that scripture is God's word. We still need avenues of inquiry to discern it, which is where I see philosophy coming into the picture to help.
Second, I wish to challenge your black/white notion of being in God (assuming by 'in the light' you mean in relationship with God). I'd argue this on at least three levels.
1. Experience does not support it. Even the best human being sins, and even the worst is capable on some level of that behavior which one can reasonably trace to some good. To suggest that one is wholly evil or wholly regenerate fails the test of experience completely.
2.Philosophical inquiry does not support it. Logically, badness can only flow from falsity or evil and good can only emerge from the true. Jesus spoke to this principle when He informed His detractors that a house divided cannot stand. Thus if good or bad are present in the created intellect in any real sense, it must follow that both are available in the mind (and spirit) from which to choose and act.
3. When Scripture is properly interepreted, it agrees with and satisfies the first two objections. The only place I've found in Scripture which seems to teach the black/white idea of spiritual birth in anything like a categorical way is Rom 8:10: "And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."
Don't have much time this morning so will elaborate later, but Paul is making the contradistinction between good and evil as inherent internal or incorporeal properties or qualities in spirit. His use of flesh and spirit is metaphorical teaching to show us that we have fragmentally within each of us that which attends to the good and that toward evil (read Rom 8:5 in relation to nos. 1 & 2 above, for example). To suggest that sin flees the human spirit to find rest in the flesh creates a big problem, which I'll get to later. Also, Paul noted that evil resides in him, the one who wishes to do good (Rom 7:21), and that he dies daily (1Cor 15:31). How can evil reside in one wholly cleansed regenerationally, or why would one die daily is only life existed within? |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:04 am Post subject: |
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The Scriptural Doctrine.
The third method of dealing with this question is to rest satisfied with the simple statements of the Bible. The Scriptures teach, (1.) That the glory of God is the end to which the promotion of holiness, and the production of happiness, and all other ends are subordinate. (2.) That, therefore, the self-manifestation of God, the revelation of his infinite perfection, being the highest conceivable, or possible good, is the ultimate end of all his works in creation, providence, and redemption. (3.) As sentient creatures are necessary for the manifestation of God's benevolence, so there could be no manifestation of his mercy without misery, or of his grace and justice, if there were no sin. As the heavens declare the glory of God, so He has devised the plan of redemption, " To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places, might be known by the Church the manifold wisdom of God." (Eph. iii. 10.) The knowledge of God is eternal life. It is for creatures the highest good. And the promotion of that knowledge, the manifestation of the manifold perfections of the infinite God, is the highest end of all his works. This is declared by the Apostle to be the end contemplated, both in the punishment of sinners and in the salvation of believers. It is an end to which, he says, no man can rationally object. " What if God, willing to shew his wrath (or justice), and to make his power known, endured with much long suffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that He might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory." (Rom. ix. 22, 23.) Sin, therefore, according the Scriptures, is permitted, that the justice of God may be known in its punishment, and his grace in its forgiveness. And the universe, without the knowledge of these attributes, would be like the earth without the light the sun.
The glory of God being the great end of all things, we are not obliged to assume that this is the best possible world for the production of happiness, or even for securing the greatest degree of holiness among rational creatures. It is wisely adapted for the end for which it was designed, namely, the manifestation of the manifold perfections of God. That God, in revealing Himself, does promote the highest good of his creatures, consistent with the promotion of his own glory, may be admitted. But to reverse this order, to make the good of the creature the highest end, is to pervert and subvert the whole scheme; it is to put the means for the end, to subordinate God to the universe, the Infinite to the finite. This putting the creature in the place of the Creator, disturbs our moral and religious sentiments and convictions, as well as our intellectual apprehensions of God, and of his relation to the universe.
The older theologians almost unanimously make the glory of God the ultimate, and the good of the creature the subordinate end of all things. Twesten, indeed, says' it makes no difference whether we say God proposes his own glory as the ultimate end, and, for that purpose, determined to produce the highest degree of good; or that He purposed the highest good of his creatures, whence the manifestation of his glory flows as a consequence. It, however, makes all the difference in the world, whether the Creator be subordinate to the creature, or the creature to the Creator; whether the end be the means, or the means the end. There is a great difference whether the earth or the sun be assumed as the centre of our solar system. If we make the earth the centre, our astronomy will be in confusion. And if we make the creature, and not God, the end of all things, our theology and religion will in like manner be perverted. It may, in conclusion, be safely asserted that a universe constructed for the purpose of making God known, is a far better universe than one designed for the production of happiness.
From Hodge's Systematic Theology, vol. 1 pp. 429-436.
I am in agreement with hodge except for when he says that God only permitted sin into His unvierse, instead of saying God is the first cause and decreed sin into His unviverse for His purpose and Glory.. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
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Satan is a Bible student.
He knows the truths that are essential for salvation, and it is his study to divert minds from these truths. Let our teachers beware lest they echo the falsehoods of the enemy of God and man.
Satan can present a counterfeit so closely resembling the truth that it deceives those who are willing to be deceived, who desire to shun the self-denial and sacrifice demanded by the truth; but it is impossible for him to hold under his power one soul who honestly desires, at whatever cost, to know the truth.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | Satan is a Bible student.
He knows the truths that are essential for salvation, and it is his study to divert minds from these truths. Let our teachers beware lest they echo the falsehoods of the enemy of God and man.
Satan can present a counterfeit so closely resembling the truth that it deceives those who are willing to be deceived, who desire to shun the self-denial and sacrifice demanded by the truth; but it is impossible for him to hold under his power one soul who honestly desires, at whatever cost, to know the truth. |
The only thing essential for salvation is Gods eternal immutable purpose !
2 tim 1:9
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 4:39 am Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | The only thing essential for salvation is Gods eternal immutable purpose ! |
Which satan has successfully perverted, as the Bible said He would (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
Satan wants people in the Christian world to believe that they can get into heaven, while disobeying God's commandments (Revelation 12:17).
It is our duty as Christians to right the wrong doctrines that satan has replaced of Christ's doctrines.
The will of God has always been.....to keep all God's commandments, with the same faith Jesus Christ had......
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man. 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
AND, the Bible points out a people who has ( and will do so)......
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
| Quote: | 2 tim 1:9
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, |
And GRACE is God's free gift, to be able to obey what God says to do.....
Romans 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: |
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silver says
| Quote: | Which satan has successfully perverted, as the Bible said He would (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
Satan wants people in the Christian world to believe that they can get into heaven, while disobeying God's commandments (Revelation 12:17).
It is our duty as Christians to right the wrong doctrines that satan has replaced of Christ's doctrines.
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The only thing perverted is you ! And may God be glorified in casting you in hell forever for your filthy blasphemies.. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | silver says
| Quote: | Which satan has successfully perverted, as the Bible said He would (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
Satan wants people in the Christian world to believe that they can get into heaven, while disobeying God's commandments (Revelation 12:17).
It is our duty as Christians to right the wrong doctrines that satan has replaced of Christ's doctrines.
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The only thing perverted is you ! And may God be glorified in casting you in hell forever for your filthy blasphemies.. |
Just remember......those words you say will be brought back to you, on the day of God's Judgment.
Your very attack upon on God, will be brought out again....unless you choose to repent of attacking God's word.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
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silver says:
| Quote: | Which satan has successfully perverted, as the Bible said He would (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).
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You are a foolish person if you think by me calling you [ a worm] a blasphemer is worser than you publically saying that satan has thwarted Gods eeternal purpose, how deceived and stupid you are, again God will be Glorified in your eternal punishment for your filthy blasphemies, and I will also rejoice, you child of the devil.. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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SS, & beloved57, That's enough already!
Either can it or I lock it! 
_________________
Much Love Nobby
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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beloved wrote:
| Quote: | The only thing essential for salvation is Gods eternal immutable purpose !
2 tim 1:9
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, |
looking at God's purpose:
Jer 36:3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
Jer 49:20 Therefore hear the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Edom; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the inhabitants of Teman: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make their habitations desolate with them.
Jer 50:45 Therefore hear ye the counsel of the LORD, that he hath taken against Babylon; and his purposes, that he hath purposed against the land of the Chaldeans: Surely the least of the flock shall draw them out: surely he shall make [their] habitation desolate with them.
Jer 51:29 And the land shall tremble and sorrow: for every purpose of the LORD shall be performed against Babylon, to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant.
Lam 2:8 The LORD hath purposed to destroy the wall of the daughter of Zion: he hath stretched out a line, he hath not withdrawn his hand from destroying: therefore he made the rampart and the wall to lament; they languished together.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Act 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
Act 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
Act 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Amen, anyone advocating That Gods purposes can be thwarted , are anti christ.. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| beloved57 wrote: | | Amen, anyone advocating That Gods purposes can be thwarted , are anti christ.. |
Yes, and the Bible provides the tests whereby we can know who is for or, against God.
Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace.
8:7 Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The supreme test of a person's faith, in God, is to see how they react to this........
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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beloved57
Cobra
Joined: 21 Mar 2007
Posts: 457
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| Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| SS, you are a filthy blasphemer on your way to a christless eternity unless you are an elect who God will convert to the truth, but at this time, you show no evidence of being a child of God, but of wrath. You blasphemer.. |
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