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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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 Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry if I've offended you RJP, although you err in accusing me of putting words in your mouth. I appear to have misunderstood what you've said, I did NOT claim to have quoted you.
| Quote: | | Evil, by definition, is the antithesis of good. God is good, therefore, evil is the antithesis of God = Satan. |
Actually, you're only defining the dynamic aspect of evil, that which prescribes on some level something one ought or ought not do, i.e., moral evil. Evil also has an inert sense which has no affiliation to moral or dynamic evil. In this context, simple impurities which blemish or cloud a piece of glass deny the glass the perfection of clarity. Aquinas used similar examples in his teaching, such as that blindess is an evil which denies the perfection of sight to the eye.
I accept evil as an ontic reality, an unpopular notion, but one that has certain benefits. For example, if evil at base is a static property, then God's creation of it (assuming such) attaches no content of badness to God for having created it. In basic spirit/matter dualism, inert falsity as that static property influencing reason by spirit [as animating principle], manifesting in will and act, is given life in the individual created intellect. It is man's will which changes or brings to life static falsity in the intellectual process, creating his or her own moral defect. [at least this is the case in a truly free will like Adam's...we're born into a world saturated with falsity and as faulty individuals wallowing in a faulty universe, do not share the fullness of Adam's error]
Thus, God cannot be blamed [in a moral sense] for dynamic evil by virtue of His role in creating or making available to His creation the property of falsity. That He has created reality in such a way that static evil is brought to dynamic moral injury by those who, by their own choice, elect to will in ways that vitalize falsity into sin is no mark against Him.
| Quote: | | Did evil exist in the garden of eden? I'm not sure it existed IN the garden, but it existed at the same time, and if it was not IN the garden from the begining, it entered the garden and tempted Eve. |
Agreed. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry Bernie if I came on strong. I've just had a lot of people arguing with me about things I didn't even say. Most of the time it was things they invented and attributed to me.
I accept the idea of misunderstanding and apologize if I offended you.
Most of what you said about evil I can agree with. I assert that 'evil' is the absence of good, just as dark is the absence of light. Not a quality in and of itself, but the absence of a quality.
At the moment, I agree with the rest of what you posted.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Most of what you said about evil I can agree with. I assert that 'evil' is the absence of good, just as dark is the absence of light. Not a quality in and of itself, but the absence of a quality. |
Hi JP. Do you believe that darkness has a beginning and an end whereas Light is infinite?
I see alot of wisdom in the notion that evil is essentially negative (absence of good), for this implies that evil is doomed to nonexistence.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sorry Bernie if I came on strong. I've just had a lot of people arguing with me about things I didn't even say. Most of the time it was things they invented and attributed to me. |
Understood. This theology board interaction stuff can be trying at times for everyone.
I agree that one aspect of evil is privatio, but to me an absence can never explain the dynamic element of sin. Privation is just a reduction of good, never able to cross over into purposeful, raging evil as far as I can see.
Apoc, your signature needs explaining....If everything comes together into one, where does the river come from??? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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rev.22:1 and he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of GOD and of the LAMB.  |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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But without good what is there besides evil? If one can only operate in evil doesn't follow that purpose would come along for the ride?
I'm not saying that all people are purposefully evil, but evil none the less. Without Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there can be nothing else.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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Bernie, my signature is taken from the novella, A River Runs Through It. Ever read it? It's short, and you can find it for free online. Give it a look and perhaps we can discuss my signature in light of the story. 
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1509
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Ana,
Amen  Took the words right out of my fingers...and he didn't answer your question as far as I can tell.
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Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
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“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1509
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP,
just got caught up here and read the locked thread that this thread spawned from...While I don't agree with you, I do appreciate your comments and the frankness with which you wrote...as I said, I don't agree, but appreciate your clarification to my question. Take care,
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks Pondering. It was intended as you took it, nothing more and nothing less.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: |
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Hi Apoc,
I'm getting old....I should explain.... I swore your signature said something to the effect that all things come together into one and a river runs through it, which I took to be a sort of pantheistic thing. I was making a lame joke....as per if all things come together, why is the 'river' left outside the sphere of 'all things' to run through it? Only now I see you using the Isa quote as a signature. Sheesh, my mind is playing tricks on me....
Sometimes it's very stormy, confused and unpleasant inside my consciousness....
Hello RevJP,
| Quote: | | But without good what is there besides evil? If one can only operate in evil doesn't follow that purpose would come along for the ride? |
Well, there can be degrees of good, I think. Paul speaks of different levels of good (or glory).... "All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory." (1Cor 15:39-41)
Assuming (as I do) that Adam and Eve existed in a state of perfection (a pure 'true' state), we might agree that their true state did not equal God's Truth; their glory was not equal to God's, nor was the perfect or true state of vegetation upon the earth like that of the created intellect. My point is that there can be levels of good in the complete absence of evil.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying that all people are purposefully evil, but evil none the less. |
Agreed....and Christianity today seems to be largely missing this point IMHO.
| Quote: | | Without Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there can be nothing else. |
I don't know if you're taking the Calvinist position here, but I think there is a very powerful case to be made in refutation of the notion that spiritual birth is an 'either/or' proposition. If, as I believe, regeneration/spiritual birth is a progressive and fragmented affair, then the adjustments to doctrine this would impose on existing soteriologies would mold them into the "one stick" [of doctrinal agreement] Ezekiel wrote about. But this is another topic....
I'll still have to disagree on philosophical terms that it's possible for there top be only evil in the created intellect. All those qualities that stand in relation to evil--rage, hatred, disorder, confusion, intolerance, etc. -- when taken to their extreme (which would be the case in a totality) could only result in total chaos and death, the crown prince of evil. Because of this, I find it difficult to believe that Satan is only evil, unless the progressives are right and Satan describes not an entity but a condition. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'll still have to disagree on philosophical terms that it's possible for there top be only evil in the created intellect. |
I understand. I was speaking on scriptural terms though.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm getting old....I should explain.... I swore your signature said something to the effect that all things come together into one and a river runs through it, which I took to be a sort of pantheistic thing. I was making a lame joke....as per if all things come together, why is the 'river' left outside the sphere of 'all things' to run through it? Only now I see you using the Isa quote as a signature. Sheesh, my mind is playing tricks on me.... |
No, no. You were not mistaken. After you asked me about my signature, I decided it was time for a new one. Sorry to confuse you! Give the novella a quick read. I'd like to get your thoughts on my old signature.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6291
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | But without good what is there besides evil? If one can only operate in evil doesn't follow that purpose would come along for the ride?
I'm not saying that all people are purposefully evil, but evil none the less. Without Christ and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit there can be nothing else. |
So there's either good or evil, no neutrality whatsoever? It's perfectly black or white? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So there's either good or evil, no neutrality whatsoever? It's perfectly black or white? |
Spiritually? Yes. We are either in the light or not. We are either looked upon by God or not. If we are not in Him then all we do is as filthy rags, all our works are as offal to Him, so without the illumination of His spirit nothing else makes one bit of difference.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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