Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby

FAQ

Contact

Profile

On Evidence for Evolution

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Creation vs. Evolution Debate

Author

Message

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:01 am Post subject:

apocatastasis wrote:

Trinity, are you saying that order necessarily involves increasing complexity?

No... why? Did I imply that somewhere?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

apocatastasis
King of the Jungle

Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 11:40 am Post subject:

Trinity, this is what threw me off:

Quote:

sorting of pebbles is really not order at all.... it may be asthetically pleasing, but it really has nothing to do with increases in anything.

_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:16 pm Post subject:

apocatastasis wrote:

Trinity, this is what threw me off:

Trinity wrote:

sorting of pebbles is really not order at all.... it may be asthetically pleasing, but it really has nothing to do with increases in anything.

Oh... that. Confused or disgusted

I beleive that this was P's example of order being produced... from energy. My reply dealt with the enormous amount of energy required, through the tides, to produce this 'order'... which really isn't much when compared to the amount of energy expended and a single celled organism.

So, do I think order is only increasing complexity? No. We are pretty ordered ourselves and require no increases in complexity to satisfy that. Now, to say that we all started out as an amoeba... and arrived at our extant condition... yea... that kind of order is not possible... nor scientific for that matter. Sad

_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

apocatastasis
King of the Jungle

Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject:

Quote:

Now, to say that we all started out as an amoeba... and arrived at our extant condition... yea... that kind of order is not possible... nor scientific for that matter.

Why not scientific? There is plenty of scientific evidence that information is added via mutation to genomes.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth."

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:21 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

"Mr. Sternberg, you're fired for allowing this paper to be published. Now, please provide the names of those individuals who reviewed this paper too."

I don't think so!

Come on P... think this through!

Actually, things should have happened in a very different order than that. He should have filed a review report with the editorial board documenting the names of ALL reviewers. He PURPOSEFULLY didn't do this, and this was WELL BEFORE he was fired. In fact, he should have done this well before the paper was even published. So like I said, Sternberg was acting very irregularly. Why wasn't the editorial board aware of the names of the reviewers BEFORE the paper was published?

Clearly Sternberg was hiding something and purposefully obfuscating the transparency that the peer-review process is supposed to have. My guess is that these other reviewers never existed.

Trinity1 wrote:

BUt P... ToE fals these tests too. I intentionally worte my objections framed aorund this fact. ToE is not observable. It is not testable... how do you test chance? It is not falsifieable... it fails this test too.

Let's assume for a second that you are right and that ToE fails these tests as well. If this were true, then I would AGREE with you that ToE should not be published in any SCIENTIFIC journals either. However, even if ToE is UNscientific, that does NOT make ID scientific!!!

You seem to agree that ID falls outside the purview of science. Can I therefore get you to agree that no ID papers should ever be published in scientific journals?

Trinity1 wrote:

No Sir. Matter can not be destroyed... nor created. Energy is nothing more than another form of matter. But it CAN NOT be created or destroyed.

Yes, this is what I meant.

Trinity1 wrote:

Quote:

This is where I strongly disagree with you. There is ample evidence to the contrary. For example, whales are sometimes born with hind legs. This is conclusive evidence that whale's ancestors used to live on land, and that they still have some genes needed for life on land burried somewhere in their genomes. These genes are sometimes expressed.

HERE.. Is this what you are talking about?

No, it DEFINITELY is NOT what I'm talking about. That is a creationist article refuting a straw-man argument that whales have hind legs. Never once does it mention the BEST example of a real whale that was found with real, fully-formed hind legs. Here is the original scientific paper, complete with a (crappy) picture of the whale, and (very good) pictures of one of the legs:

Check it out.

Trinity1 wrote:

Hydrologically sorted pebbles on a beach requiring the energy of an ocean to do is not increasing. First of all... the sorting of pebbles is really not order at all.... it may be asthetically pleasing, but it really has nothing to do with increases in anything.

Whoa! I beg to differ! Rocks sorted by size is DEFINITELY a measure of order. If you took the entire beach and randomized it so that all of the different sizes were all over the place, then its entropy would go up. If you then left it for a couple of weeks and let the waves do their thing, the entropy would go down. The waves bring order to the pebbles on the beach.

This is an EXCELLENT example of how a totally unintelligent process such as water guided by the moon's gravity can INCREASE order, and DECREASE entropy. It therefore serves as an EXCELLENT counterexample to the claim that intelligence is required to bring order to a randomized mess somewhere in the universe. Intelligence really isn't required. There are many other examples.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 5:59 am Post subject:

Yo P... I have a long reply prepared last night at home and for some reason I either got kicked off or lost me connection. I'll try to putting my thoughts together sometime today. You citation was extreemly interesting! One of those... 'be careful for what you ask for' scenarios. I think I had four things on that... but... like I said, I need to give some more thought. _________________ Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..." ‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:01 am Post subject:

apocatastasis wrote:

Quote:

Now, to say that we all started out as an amoeba... and arrived at our extant condition... yea... that kind of order is not possible... nor scientific for that matter.

Why not scientific? There is plenty of scientific evidence that information is added via mutation to genomes.

Added... like the duplication of already existing information perhaps... I have no problem with that. That is an error... but it still doesn't lead to the exponential increases in information necessary for goo-to-you to work.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 2:51 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Yo P... I have a long reply prepared last night at home and for some reason I either got kicked off or lost me connection.

I'll try to putting my thoughts together sometime today. You citation was extreemly interesting! One of those... 'be careful for what you ask for' scenarios. Very Happy

I think I had four things on that... but... like I said, I need to give some more thought.

Ok, cool; I await your response!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 4:26 pm Post subject:

Trying remember the details of my brilliant response from last night... Confused or disgusted

OK... how about just my response?

P1234567890 wrote:

Actually, things should have happened in a very different order than that. He should have filed a review report with the editorial board documenting the names of ALL reviewers. He PURPOSEFULLY didn't do this, and this was WELL BEFORE he was fired. In fact, he should have done this well before the paper was even published. So like I said, Sternberg was acting very irregularly. Why wasn't the editorial board aware of the names of the reviewers BEFORE the paper was published?
Clearly Sternberg was hiding something and purposefully obfuscating the transparency that the peer-review process is supposed to have. My guess is that these other reviewers never existed.

OK... look at it this way:
"Mr. Sternberg, you are fired for allowing this article promoting ID, criticising ToE, with out any critical application of ACCEPTED SCIENTIFIC PRACTICES."
Then comes the next question:
"Now Mr. Sternberg, as for the names of the reviewers who were unable to recognize these obvious deviations from accepted protocol, who were they?"

and his answer would/should/logically be? I could tell you what mine would be... and it wouldn't be silence either. #2gunfire

Quote:

Let's assume for a second that you are right and that ToE fails these tests as well. If this were true, then I would AGREE with you that ToE should not be published in any SCIENTIFIC journals either. However, even if ToE is UNscientific, that does NOT make ID scientific!!!
You seem to agree that ID falls outside the purview of science. Can I therefore get you to agree that no ID papers should ever be published in scientific journals?

Sure... if an equal application of science would be made and this equal application were taught equally within our school systems... and that could even include not teaching them at all too.

But just because one seemingly falls outside the constructs of science does not necessarily mean that the default doesn't... as it does.

This is where you just blew me away:

Quote:

HERE.. Is this what you are talking about?

I found that article absolutely fascinating. Never in a million years (no pun intended) would have I expected to see something like that. I initially thought it was a fake or equal to human freaks of nature... and that is what go me thinking:
1. I noticed it was cartridge... not bone... does this make any difference?
2. The photos are almost 100 years old, are we sure of their authenticity?
3. Is this specimen still available for study?
4. It stated that the pelvic bone was extending outside of the whale. An obvious deformity. Could these appendages also be part of a mutational deformity... similar to say fruit flies being born with four wings instead of two.

Quote:

We have rocks being sorted by size and weight based on volumes of water, gravity, and the slope of a beach... we still will never get a house built with it, a bridge, or a living organism... no matter how much time we figure into this equation. This is not organization forming from natural processes... it builds nothing at all.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2006 6:10 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

You're not listening to me! Sternberg was supposed to tell the committee who the referees were WELL BEFORE any of the controversy happened. The fact that he neglected to fill out his paperwork (even though he was the EDITOR of the journal) really says something! He wasn't even in trouble yet!

Trinity1 wrote:

Are you sure about this? The legs look like bone. In any case, they are definitely legs, which means that the whale has DNA for legs in its genome. Why on Earth would God put legs into a whale's genome? He would never make such a mistake. I am NOT claiming that this refutes the Bible. What I am claiming is that maybe, just maybe this is good evidence showing that God's way of creating the animals was by natural selection. That was the tool that He used.

Trinity1 wrote:

2. The photos are almost 100 years old, are we sure of their authenticity?

I am convinced that they are, because there have been MANY more documented cases of whales with limbs. Unforunately, it is hard to get copies of them on the internet. Here are a bunch of references from peer-reviewed scientific journals:

Hall, B. K. (1984) "Developmental mechanisms underlying the formation of atavisms." Biol. Rev. 59: 89-124.

Hall, B. K. (1995) "Atavisms and atavistic mutations." Nature Genetics 10: 126-127.

Zembskii, V. A., and Berzin, A. A. (1961) "On the rare phenomenon of atavism in the sperm whale." Nauchnye Doklady Vysshei Shkoly. Series "Biologicheskie Nauki."

Berzin, A. A. (1972) The Sperm Whale. Pacific Scientific Research Institute of Fisheries and Oceanography. Israel Program for Scientific Translations, Jerusalem. Available from the U. S. Dept. of Commerce, National Technical Information Service. Springfield, VA.

Nemoto, T. (1963) "New records of sperm whales with protruded rudimentary hind limbs." Sci. Rep. Whales Res. Inst. No. 17.

Ogawa, R., and Kamiya, T. A. (1957) "Case of the cachalot with protruded rudimentary hind limbs." Sci. Rep. Whales Res. Inst. No. 12.

Abel, O. (1908) "Die Morphologie der Huftbeinrudimente der Cetaceen." Denkschr. Math. Naturw. Klasse Kaiserl. Aka. Wiss. Vol. 81.

I'm sorry that I can't make it easier for you to see these articles. I can't find any of them on the net. In any case, if this is a conspiracy, then it's pretty widespread! I think that with so many peer-reviewed articles and so many different species of whales with hind limbs found, it is reasonable to conclude that these things really do have the DNA for legs in their genomes.

Trinity1 wrote:

3. Is this specimen still available for study?

Apparently it is. They say it is at the Royal B.C. Museum in Victoria B.C. I was just there a few weeks ago; I had half a mind to go down to the museum and see if I could get pictures with my own camera. I now wish that I'd gone.

Trinity1 wrote:

4. It stated that the pelvic bone was extending outside of the whale. An obvious deformity. Could these appendages also be part of a mutational deformity... similar to say fruit flies being born with four wings instead of two.

Not really; fruit flies already have DNA for wings, so all that really happened with them is that they got screwed up and the DNA for a pair of wings expressed itself twice. The bottom line is that whales definitely must have DNA for legs inside their genomes. You can't have legs without DNA.

Quote:

But it is building something! Obviously not a house or anything like that, but it definitely is building something that has more order to it than the chaos that was there before the waves did their work.

All I'm trying to say is that waves can DECREASE entropy. In other words, intelligence is not required for bringing order. It's just one simple example.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 9:55 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

I thought you might have missed part of what the investigating organization found out:

Quote:

During our initial investigations, OSC has been able to find support for many of your allegations. However, the SI is now refusing to cooperate with our investigation. OSC is not able to take statements and receive further paper discovery that would allow for final conclusions.

The Smithsonian is not even cooperating even more with the investigation... maybe they are hiding something now?

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

1. I noticed it was cartridge... not bone... does this make any difference?

You source article called it cartilage... I'm very sure of that.

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

Let be more specific... replication of appendages is a common copying mistake... from what I saw in your article; this could have been nothing more than a copying mistake of one of the fins...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:02 am Post subject:

P, here are a few more excerps from that investigation summary:

Quote:

Our investigation also shows that there is a strong religious and political component to the actions taken after the publication of the Meyer article. Much of the e-mail traffic after the publication of the Meyer article documented a personal investigation of you and tabbed you as a "creationist." One senior SI employee, when discussing the Meyer article stated, "the paper is a sheer disaster… We are evolutionary biologist, and I am sorry to see us made into the laughing stock of the world, even if this kind of rubbish sells well in backwoods, USA… under no circumstances should the Institution support the journal with page-charges, which up to this point has been a mainstay of the Society." After the publication when many in the SI were investigating your background one of the e-mails raised concerns that you had "extensive training as an orthodox priest." Another e-mail stated, "Scientists have been perfectly willing to let these people alone in their churches, but now it looks like these people are coming out and invading our schools, biology classes, museums and now our professional journals. These people to my mind are only a scale up on the fundies of a more destructive kind in other parts of the world. Depressing. Oh, if we only still had Steve Gould to lead the counter-attack."

If this is a science journal, it shouldn't be called one, as any article critical of the scared cow will never be published.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:04 am Post subject:

This addresses your assertion that he is hiding something:

Quote:

You allege in your complaint that SI managers questioned people that they thought to be your friends at the SI, regarding your religion and your political affiliations. According to your complaint, this occurred on at least two occasions. You learned this through direct statements made to you by the individuals that were questioned. As stated above, our investigation has not been allowed to proceed through the interview process. We have not been able to question the individuals involved in the alleged conversations to determine if the facts would support a specified legal conclusion.

Why in the world should he cooperate if SI isn't. It makes perfect sense to me for him to tell them to shove it!
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:02 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

The Smithsonian is not even cooperating even more with the investigation... maybe they are hiding something now?

Why does the Smithsonian matter? We care about whether or not Sternberg was acting properly as the editor of the Washington Journal. We don't care about his position at the Smithsonian at all. The two things have nothing to do with each other!

Trinity1 wrote:

You source article called it cartilage... I'm very sure of that.

If you say so; I read it a while ago and I'm too lazy to go read it again. In any case, it doesn't really matter; the bottom line is that the whale (and many other whales in the literature) had a leg, which means that it had the DNA for a leg in its genome...

Trinity1 wrote:

Let be more specific... replication of appendages is a common copying mistake... from what I saw in your article; this could have been nothing more than a copying mistake of one of the fins...

Come on, you don't believe that... Does it look anything like a fin?

Besides, when copying mistakes happen, the extra leg or arm or wing or whatever sprouts out right next to one of the regular legs, arm, or wings. The whale's 'extra appendage grew out of its pelvis, and not right next to its regular fins, thereby showing that it definitely wasn't a copying mistake.

I think that the evidence clearly shows that whales have DNA for legs in their genomes which can sometimes be expressed.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Wed Aug 30, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject:

Trinity, check this out: This is a good paper! The section called "Atavisms" has all the information you could ever want on whales with hind limbs... _________________ "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." -Blaise Pascal "...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..." -Steven Weinberg "I would bless my children with your destruction instead." -Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Display posts from previous:

	Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Creation vs. Evolution Debate	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 3 of 4