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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
P#s, you're usually pretty reasonable, so I think you meant this "tongue in cheek"...if not, we need to get you to the UN ASAP! 
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Yes, of course; I just wanted people to read my post.
Thanks for your comments above, Pondering. I found them to be interesting and I learned a thing or two that I didn't know before.
| Pondering wrote: |
Culturally, I'd say that Arabs are happy to play the victim, so they don't help themselves as much as they could.
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Agreed; they certainly aren't playing any of the hands that Ghandi or Nelson Mandela played so well. Nobody has done a worse job at squandering potential global sympathy than the Palestinians.
| Pondering wrote: |
I agree that Israel often brings a gun to a knife fight, but how many Palesteninian buses get blown up by whacked out Kibutzers?
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Never, to my knowledge. The only Jewish terrorist attacks that I am aware of were against the British WELL BEFORE the founding of Israel.
| Pondering wrote: |
Last point, it's important to remember that both groups are a people with LONG memories and little tradition of "let bygones be bygones". In Iran, at a rally, people were chanting the name of an ancient battle between Mohammed and a Jewish tribe at an oasis in 628 (or so)...to them, that was last week. |
Which interestingly is a BIG feather in Jesus' cap. In Islam, if someone messes with your brother or your cousin or whatever, they are YOUR enemy as well. In Christianity, even if someone messes with YOU, they still aren't your enemy. I give Jesus credit where credit is due.
Anyways, just to say one more thing against the Israelis: why ON EARTH would they want to live there anyways? Why would people move to Israel? How much sense does that make? I agree that the Jews are a historically persecuted race, but moving to a country where all of your neighbours hate you hardly seems like the proper way to avoid persecution... Why not move to New York or Toronto or London or some place like that?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Anyways, just to say one more thing against the Israelis: why ON EARTH would they want to live there anyways? Why would people move to Israel? How much sense does that make? I agree that the Jews are a historically persecuted race, but moving to a country where all of your neighbours hate you hardly seems like the proper way to avoid persecution... Why not move to New York or Toronto or London or some place like that? |
I guess they have an historical right to be there. To me the entire area is a hot dry dusty mess of rocks and stones. But I have to give credit where credit is due. The Israelis have improved much of the land in their borders for agriculture, living, etc. And, let's face it, made money, made business, made a good living. So for putting in hard work and sweat, I think they earned their due.
I'm reminded of when Israel turned over land to the Arabs years ago. They turned over a tract of land with houses, greenhouses, fresh water treatment plant, sewarage treatment plant, and a power house. Worth in the millions. What did the Arabs do on the first day? They raided them for parts, equipment, and supplies!!! The following week their water had to come in in trucks, they threw their sewarage and garbage out in the streets - that's besides that they had no social infrastructure in place like garbage collection, and had to have food granted to them. And the houses were basically turned into shanties.
I'll just mention that with no further comment.
Oh. If you want to be picky, the Arabs should belong on the Arabian peninsula as that is their ancestral home - not in Israel nor the area of Palestine. But that is only if you want to be picky. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Anyways, just to say one more thing against the Israelis: why ON EARTH would they want to live there anyways? Why would people move to Israel? How much sense does that make? I agree that the Jews are a historically persecuted race, but moving to a country where all of your neighbours hate you hardly seems like the proper way to avoid persecution... Why not move to New York or Toronto or London or some place like that? |
I guess they have an historical right to be there.
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Oh. If you want to be picky, the Arabs should belong on the Arabian peninsula as that is their ancestral home - not in Israel nor the area of Palestine. But that is only if you want to be picky. |
I don't see what ancestral homes have to do with anything. If you really want to think that way, then we should all leave North America and give the land back to the natives. As for the Israelis, I really don't get it at all. The average Jew whose family has lived in Vienna for centuries that suddenly decides to pack up and move to Israel has about as much connection to the land and the people there as I do (which none).
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Anyways, just to say one more thing against the Israelis: why ON EARTH would they want to live there anyways? Why would people move to Israel? How much sense does that make? I agree that the Jews are a historically persecuted race, but moving to a country where all of your neighbours hate you hardly seems like the proper way to avoid persecution... Why not move to New York or Toronto or London or some place like that? |
I guess they have an historical right to be there.
...
Oh. If you want to be picky, the Arabs should belong on the Arabian peninsula as that is their ancestral home - not in Israel nor the area of Palestine. But that is only if you want to be picky. |
I don't see what ancestral homes have to do with anything. If you really want to think that way, then we should all leave North America and give the land back to the natives.
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That won't happen. We took their land and we're not giving it back. Living on reservations tax-free is poor compensation but an acknowledgement nevertheless.
| Quote: |
As for the Israelis, I really don't get it at all. The average Jew whose family has lived in Vienna for centuries that suddenly decides to pack up and move to Israel has about as much connection to the land and the people there as I do (which none). |
Those families in Vienna and elsewhere were from Jews that can trace back to Israel over the centuries. So Israel is their ancenstral home and their homeland. Jews have more than an ancestral attachment to the land. They have a religious attachment to the land, which finds its roots in Biblical tradition.
As for Arabia. The Koran was created in Arabia by Arabs. So if you want to use religious attachment and Koranic tradition, Arabs have their homeland in Arabia. Besides, isn't this one of the ideas why Osama bin Laden so hates the United States? Because we infidels set foot, and continue to set foot, on sacred Arab land? Especially fighting against absolutely mad Muslims they themselves wouldn't like but still fighting against their sacred Muslims brothers on sacred Arab land anyway. Anyway, since Arabia is the homeland of the Arabs, then what do they want with the land Israel occupies besides picking on Jews and wanting what they have worked hard to build? If they don't view Arabia as their homeland then Osama bin Laden and the others inspiring Muslims to fight a war with the United States for being in Arabia was all pretence.
I think someone mentioned the reason, and I think it was a good one. Perhaps it was even you. The Muslims need the Jews and the West to pick fights with or else they will fight with each other. And let's suppose the world is stupid enough to allow Arab Muslims blackmail or otherwise destory Israel, the United States, even the West. They will turn against each other anyway.
So I guess that is why Bush is trying to reach these lands with "freedom" and "liberty". The more secular they become perhaps the more on common ground they can stand with the rest of us instead of being so wild and fanatical. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6291
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | I don't see what ancestral homes have to do with anything. If you really want to think that way, then we should all leave North America and give the land back to the natives. |
Not only that but the Europeans should give us houses, right? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | I don't see what ancestral homes have to do with anything. If you really want to think that way, then we should all leave North America and give the land back to the natives. |
Not only that but the Europeans should give us houses, right? |
Yeah, and I'd like one on the waterfront...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | They have a religious attachment to the land, which finds its roots in Biblical tradition.
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Note to self: remember this as an example of how religion is evil and causes suffering.
| Ryck wrote: |
I think someone mentioned the reason, and I think it was a good one. Perhaps it was even you. The Muslims need the Jews and the West to pick fights with or else they will fight with each other. And let's suppose the world is stupid enough to allow Arab Muslims blackmail or otherwise destory Israel, the United States, even the West. They will turn against each other anyway.
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Yeah, I really don't understand why the U.S. doesn't follow the old British Imperial model. The British would go and carve up countries PERPENDICULARLY to ethnic groups and strategic resources. This would GUARANTEE that the natives in their colonies would be too busy killing each other rather than the British, AND IT WORKED VERY WELL.
Why doesn't America do the same? If you guys pulled out of Iraq, there would be a MAJOR war. Iran would immediately try to grab it to expand its Shia state, and the Sunni parts of the Islamic world would have to back the Sunnis in Iraq. America could watch from the sidelines, and if any side ever gets an upper hand, then help the other side out with some strategic air strikes or some arms or something like that.
I am of course kidding; this would be an evil thing to do because it would plunge the entire region into a VERY long war. But I don't really understand why we haven't seen more of this kind of thing. I guess we need the oil flowing more badly than anyone really suspects...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | I don't see what ancestral homes have to do with anything. If you really want to think that way, then we should all leave North America and give the land back to the natives. |
Not only that but the Europeans should give us houses, right? |
Yeah, and I'd like one on the waterfront... |
Safer for you to find waterfront in an inland lake or other inland body of water. If you are on ocean waterfront and all the ice at the poles were to melt ...
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | They have a religious attachment to the land, which finds its roots in Biblical tradition.
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Note to self: remember this as an example of how religion is evil and causes suffering.
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Perhaps.
Also remember this as how wrongs should be made right. Otherwise, the wrongs may fester.
Yes, sometimes it is a tough call.
| Quote: |
| Ryck wrote: |
I think someone mentioned the reason, and I think it was a good one. Perhaps it was even you. The Muslims need the Jews and the West to pick fights with or else they will fight with each other. And let's suppose the world is stupid enough to allow Arab Muslims blackmail or otherwise destory Israel, the United States, even the West. They will turn against each other anyway.
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Yeah, I really don't understand why the U.S. doesn't follow the old British Imperial model. The British would go and carve up countries PERPENDICULARLY to ethnic groups and strategic resources. This would GUARANTEE that the natives in their colonies would be too busy killing each other rather than the British, AND IT WORKED VERY WELL.
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Good point! Excellent actually. When India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Kashmir was one land the British partitioned the land in the ways you mentioned. And it did help keep the British from being sandwiched between their feuds.
I don't know why Iraq isn't partitioned as well. Well, perhaps I know of one reason: Iran. Iran will immediately move into the Shia partition. And that Shia partition would be too strategic.
| Quote: |
Why doesn't America do the same? If you guys pulled out of Iraq, there would be a MAJOR war. Iran would immediately try to grab it to expand its Shia state, and the Sunni parts of the Islamic world would have to back the Sunnis in Iraq. America could watch from the sidelines, and if any side ever gets an upper hand, then help the other side out with some strategic air strikes or some arms or something like that.
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That sounds funny - morbid as that sounds. But I think the major reason the USA is keeping the two sides apart by using our young men and women as human shields is that nobody wants a Gulf War III where all the Arab states would be too busy fighting instead of being busy pumping oil. It comes down to economics.
Heck! If the Arabs stopped pumping oil because of Gulf War III even the complacent European Union might get involved.
Frankly, I think the only winner in Gulf War III would be Israel. Not from her superior weapons but from her strict non-involvement. I'm sure Israel won't be happy with a great tempest so close to its borders but at least they'll give a sigh of relief and say, "Good! It ain't against us!"
And I'm not sure if Gulf War III would remain regionalized. What would prevent Egypt and the North African Muslim nations from weighing-in? And the Muslim "stan" countries too? This could spiral out-of-control into a major Muslim war! If it ends, believe me that it will continue to fester with new blood feuds for at least a century.
Or until they remember about the Jews and the West again. But by that time we'll have hundreds of those terror cells that were fighting among themselves now fighting again against the Jews and the West.
Oh sigh!!! Let me stop! 
The problem with Middle East oil is that it is very flamable - especially with all the fireworks going on. (Sad pun intended.)
So Gulf War III with Muslim against Muslim is to be avoided in spite of what short term relief it may give.
| Quote: |
I am of course kidding; this would be an evil thing to do because it would plunge the entire region into a VERY long war. But I don't really understand why we haven't seen more of this kind of thing. I guess we need the oil flowing more badly than anyone really suspects... |
Yes, I know you are kidding. Of course. Your last point hit the nail on the head as I reached the same conclusion.
Oil is more valuable than blood. 
We gotta switch to hydrogen - fast! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6291
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Why doesn't America do the same? |
Nuclear Proliferation! (Oil) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: |
Also remember this as how wrongs should be made right. Otherwise, the wrongs may fester.
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As opposed to now, when there are no wrongs festering in the Holy Land?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ryck wrote: |
Also remember this as how wrongs should be made right. Otherwise, the wrongs may fester.
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As opposed to now, when there are no wrongs festering in the Holy Land? |
If you believe that, where have you been getting your information? |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | I guess they have an historical right to be there. |
I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not Ryck... but the Palestinian Waqf are destroying any remenant of archological evidence that points to the Jewish claim to the Temple Mount. HERE you'll see a systematic destruction of artifcats buried beneath the Temple, thus destroying any evidence that the Jews have any claim to the site.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Ryck wrote: |
Also remember this as how wrongs should be made right. Otherwise, the wrongs may fester.
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As opposed to now, when there are no wrongs festering in the Holy Land? |
If you believe that, where have you been getting your information? |
There are all sorts of wrongs festering in the Holy land. It was wrong for the Israelis to kick Palestinians out of their homes. It was wrong for the Palestinians to blow up Israelis in cafes and busses. It was wrong for the Israelis to kill even one person accidentally during an air strike, and so on.
All of this stuff festers, and the more people die, the more you can guarantee that the number of relatives wanting revenge will increase. That's not a formula for peace.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | I guess they have an historical right to be there. |
I'm not sure if you are aware of this or not Ryck... but the Palestinian Waqf are destroying any remenant of archological evidence that points to the Jewish claim to the Temple Mount. HERE you'll see a systematic destruction of artifcats buried beneath the Temple, thus destroying any evidence that the Jews have any claim to the site. |
No, I didn't know that. That's awful. How much lower can they sink?
Thanks for the info. I'll print it. |
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