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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | First positive that comes to mind about Islam (there are many but I studied this recently):
If it weren't for Islam, we would not have the Ancient Greek texts (as well as other classical texts but I don't remember which) we do today. They preserved them in colleges. The rest were destroyed by Christians in the Dark Ages, as I recall. |
So we learned about Greek literature, philosophy, etc from Islam??? We got the works of Sophocles, Sappho, Homer, Aeschylus, Plato, and others from the hands of Islam? Is that your claim? |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | Excuse me? What started 1400s? |
Beats me. Please read what I'm saying.
Islam is 1400 years old (approximately). It is at a similar stage as Christianity when it was 1400 years old (in the 1400s).
Math!
Do you understand it?
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As initially explained by you - no. That's why I questioned you.
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| Ryck wrote: | | No. Common knowledge. If Jesus was a figment it would have been shot down immediately by the inhabitants of Jerusalem, at least, who were contemporaries with the Christians if not by the Judeans, Galeleans, and the Romans. |
If Moses was a figment, it would have been shot down immediately by [whoever was around at the time]. Only, Moses was made up long after when he was purported to be alive. No one got to shoot down the figment of Moses because at the time nobody thought to since nobody thought he existed yet.
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I suppose given enough time, and God-forbid a global upheaval, the existance of Abraham Lincoln would be questioned by your disbelieving counter-part in the year 6006 in-spite of what surviving written materials have to say!
Being a persistant critic is like being a persistant blower of your own candle as you search for valuable things in a dark place, FFT. I suggest you light your candle and keep it lit. Otherwise, you'll simply stay in the dark and find nothing.
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| Ryck wrote: | | Start talking. May I suggest you start a new thread in the appropriate section of BibleDiscussion.com. |
I've already done so in the past. There's not much point to it. You'll post a bunch of statements by people that weren't even contemporaries of Jesus and I'll point out why they're invalid and we'll both continue believing what we already believe.
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I'm sure old discussions will rise again eventually. When this rises again please be so kind to repost your arguments.
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| Ryck wrote: | | Then you haven't looked for evidence? |
Of course I have. It's not convincing.
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Why am I not surprised at that statement? 
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| Ryck wrote: | Like I said, depends on who you ask. Perhaps you feel 2 billion Christians a cult makes but it is not the accepted consensus. So, you lose.  |
So it's entirely out of the question that a small cult got popular? Say, when a certain Roman emperor decided that it would be great to endorse it to get rid of these pesky Jews we've got all around here?
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That certain Roman emperor was Nero. And to save his own butt shifted blame for the Roman Fire to the Christians.
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| Ryck wrote: | | If that is the case, what a clever sophisticated deception dreamed-up and sold to an entire city, an entire nation, and the entire then known world by a group of fishermen and a tax collector. |
Did Hercules exist? |
Did the Greeks seriously believe their own mythology?
I'm sure you'll respond affirmatively. I'll probably agree but to a point, FFT. I'll show why later in this post.
Please note if you were to study these deities closely, the deities of the Greeks are depicted as being very immoral, petty, and as having many human weaknesses. They quarreled among themselves, fought against one another, and even conspired against one another. Zeus, the supreme god of the Greeks, is said to have dethroned his own father Cronus. Earlier, Cronus himself had deposed and even castrated his father Uranus. Both Uranus and Cronus are depicted as cruel fathers. Uranus immediately concealed in the earth the offspring borne to him by his wife Gaea, not even permitting them to see the light. Cronus, on the other hand, swallowed the children borne to him by Rhea.
Sounds funny, doesn't it? And you'd believe this type of account over the Bible's way? Or put Greek mythology and the Bible on the same level?
Consider also the morals of these dieties which they worshipped. Among their more populare practices attributed to certain deities are adultery, fornication, incest, rape, lying, thievery, drunkenness, and murder. Those who incurred the disfavor of a god or goddess are depicted as being punished in a most cruel manner. For example, Marsyas, who challenged the god Apollo to a musical contest, was attached by the latter to a tree trunk and skinned alive. The goddess Artemis is said to have changed the hunter Actaeon into a stag and then caused his own hounds to devour him, this because he had seen her nakedness.
Of course, it's claimed that these mythological accounts were nothing more than the imaginations of the poets. But on this, Augustine of the fourth century wrote something that should interest you: "For whereas it is said in their defence, that these tales of their gods were not true, but merely poetical inventions, and false fictions, why this doth make it more abominable, if you respect the purity of your religion: and if you observe the malice of the devil, what more cunning or more deceitful craftiness can there be? For when an honest and worthy ruler of a country is slandered, is not the slander so much more wicked and unpardonable, as this party’s life that is slandered is clearer and sounder from touch of any such matter?" (The City of God, Book II, chap IX)
But, to be sure, FFT, the popularity of the poetical accounts as enacted on the Greek stage indicates that the majority did not regard them as slander, but were in harmony with them. The immorality of their gods served to justify man’s wrongdoing, and this found favor with the people. So with these role models, the Greeks, and later the Romans, emulated their gods.
The Jews and later the Christians, had a much much higher standard of morality. How do you account for it?
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| Ryck wrote: | | You really know little of what you're talking about, don't you? Jesus himself said that his kingdom was no part of the world. So are you making this up as you go along or you don't know what you're talking about? Be honest. |
I actually do know quite a bit about this. Jesus got the execution of traitors and thieves. |
Incorrect. The High Priest Caiaphas finally sold Pontius Pilate on Jesus for sedition because he couldn't get the Roman official to condemn Jesus on local or religious grounds. Do you know what sedition is?
Sedition,n: rebellion or incitement - actions or words intended to provoke or incite rebellion against government authority, or actual rebellion against government authority. -- Encarta World English Dictionary
The end result is death but Jesus was not put to death as a traitor nor as a thief.
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| Ryck wrote: | | As regards the "magic stuff". That could have been easily refuted too by anti-Jesus elements of the day. But the fact that Jesus performed so many miracles before large crowds of people made it impossible to refute and why the accounts of such miracles made it to writing and circulated. |
Again, you can't refute something when the idea isn't even around yet to be refuted. What kind of loony would I look like if I went around saying "no miracles today! No, sir!"?
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You were not listening, were you? I said that the miracles Jesus performed were before crowds of people. Get it now? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | So we learned about Greek literature, philosophy, etc from Islam??? We got the works of Sophocles, Sappho, Homer, Aeschylus, Plato, and others from the hands of Islam? Is that your claim? |
The works were preserved by Islam while other copies were destroyed, yes.
| Ryck wrote: | | As initially explained by you - no. That's why I questioned you. |
Holy hell, man. It's MATH. It's EASY.
Christianity in the 1400s is similar to Islam today.
In the 1400s, Christianity was ~1400 years old.
Islam was started ~600 years after Christianity.
Islam is ~600 years younger than Christianity.
Today, Christianity is ~2000 years old.
Islam is ~1400 years old.
HOW HARD IS THIS?
| Ryck wrote: | | I suppose given enough time, and God-forbid a global upheaval, the existance of Abraham Lincoln would be questioned by your disbelieving counter-part in the year 6006 in-spite of what surviving written materials have to say! |
Unlikely. There are masses of contemporary mentions of Lincoln, and even things he himself wrote.
Can you say the same for Jesus? I mean, obviously you can, but are these mentions necessarily legitimate?
| Ryck wrote: | | That certain Roman emperor was Nero. And to save his own butt shifted blame for the Roman Fire to the Christians. |
Hardly. Nero persecuted Christians. It wasn't until later that it was made the official religion, remember?
| Ryck wrote: | Did the Greeks seriously believe their own mythology?
I'm sure you'll respond affirmatively. I'll probably agree but to a point, FFT. I'll show why later in this post. |
Early Greeks did. Eventually they weren't very serious about it.
| Ryck wrote: | | Sounds funny, doesn't it? And you'd believe this type of account over the Bible's way? Or put Greek mythology and the Bible on the same level? |
Talking donkeys and snakes?
Hello?
| Ryck wrote: | | Consider also the morals of these dieties which they worshipped. Among their more populare practices attributed to certain deities are adultery, fornication, incest, rape, lying, thievery, drunkenness, and murder. Those who incurred the disfavor of a god or goddess are depicted as being punished in a most cruel manner. For example, Marsyas, who challenged the god Apollo to a musical contest, was attached by the latter to a tree trunk and skinned alive. The goddess Artemis is said to have changed the hunter Actaeon into a stag and then caused his own hounds to devour him, this because he had seen her nakedness. |
God sent bears to kill 42 children because they were being disrespectful?
Hello?
| Ryck wrote: | | The Jews and later the Christians, had a much much higher standard of morality. How do you account for it? |
Who cares? What does that have to do with the factual level of the texts?
| Ryck wrote: | Incorrect. The High Priest Caiaphas finally sold Pontius Pilate on Jesus for sedition because he couldn't get the Roman official to condemn Jesus on local or religious grounds. Do you know what sedition is?
Sedition,n: rebellion or incitement - actions or words intended to provoke or incite rebellion against government authority, or actual rebellion against government authority. -- Encarta World English Dictionary
The end result is death but Jesus was not put to death as a traitor nor as a thief. |
Sedition is a form of treason, oh bright one.
| Ryck wrote: | | You were not listening, were you? I said that the miracles Jesus performed were before crowds of people. Get it now? |
So what?
Yesterday, in front of hundreds of people, I grew an amputated arm back.
Did this actually happen?
If no, why? Hundreds of people saw it, how can you say it didn't happen!?
If yes, you are hilariously gullible. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8329
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | FFT wrote: | First positive that comes to mind about Islam (there are many but I studied this recently):
If it weren't for Islam, we would not have the Ancient Greek texts (as well as other classical texts but I don't remember which) we do today. They preserved them in colleges. The rest were destroyed by Christians in the Dark Ages, as I recall. |
So we learned about Greek literature, philosophy, etc from Islam??? We got the works of Sophocles, Sappho, Homer, Aeschylus, Plato, and others from the hands of Islam? Is that your claim? |
I don't know about the specific works you mention, but it is ABSOLUTELY true that the Islamic world acted as a life raft for knowledge during our dark ages. After the fall of the Roman Empire, Europe descended into an intellectual abyss. We destroyed all of the knowledge that had been discovered by the Greeks. It was only because of the EARLY Islamic leaders who still had their heads screwed on straight that many of the Greek works survived.
Unlike the Christians during the dark ages, early Islamic leaders respected knowledge, and coped as much of it as possible from Greek sources. In fact, there were some leaders who would pay for books with their weight in gold. We owe them a great debt for saving all of the stuff that we would have destroyed.
Of course, there is a proviso; after the first few generations, Islam degraded into a degenerate religion as well. We had a reformation and climbed out of the abyss, and they never have.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | So we learned about Greek literature, philosophy, etc from Islam??? We got the works of Sophocles, Sappho, Homer, Aeschylus, Plato, and others from the hands of Islam? Is that your claim? |
The works were preserved by Islam while other copies were destroyed, yes.
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Got any references? In the meantime, I'll look it up too.
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| Ryck wrote: | | As initially explained by you - no. That's why I questioned you. |
Holy hell, man. It's MATH. It's EASY.
Christianity in the 1400s is similar to Islam today.
In the 1400s, Christianity was ~1400 years old.
Islam was started ~600 years after Christianity.
Islam is ~600 years younger than Christianity.
Today, Christianity is ~2000 years old.
Islam is ~1400 years old.
HOW HARD IS THIS?
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How is your reading comprehension? I said as initially explained by you - no.
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| Ryck wrote: | | I suppose given enough time, and God-forbid a global upheaval, the existance of Abraham Lincoln would be questioned by your disbelieving counter-part in the year 6006 in-spite of what surviving written materials have to say! |
Unlikely. There are masses of contemporary mentions of Lincoln, and even things he himself wrote.
Can you say the same for Jesus? I mean, obviously you can, but are these mentions necessarily legitimate?
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I believe they are.
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| Ryck wrote: | | That certain Roman emperor was Nero. And to save his own butt shifted blame for the Roman Fire to the Christians. |
Hardly. Nero persecuted Christians. It wasn't until later that it was made the official religion, remember?
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Nero was madman, started a fire, and made the Christians take the fall for it. Look it up. I don't think any of the Roman emperors like Christianity that much but Trajan and Aurelius were what I would call real bloody persecuters of Christians.
It was some 250 years later when Christianity became the official religion.
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| Ryck wrote: | Did the Greeks seriously believe their own mythology?
I'm sure you'll respond affirmatively. I'll probably agree but to a point, FFT. I'll show why later in this post. |
Early Greeks did. Eventually they weren't very serious about it. |
Good. An agreement.
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| Ryck wrote: | | Sounds funny, doesn't it? And you'd believe this type of account over the Bible's way? Or put Greek mythology and the Bible on the same level? |
Talking donkeys and snakes?
Hello?
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Miracles!
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| Ryck wrote: | | Consider also the morals of these dieties which they worshipped. Among their more populare practices attributed to certain deities are adultery, fornication, incest, rape, lying, thievery, drunkenness, and murder. Those who incurred the disfavor of a god or goddess are depicted as being punished in a most cruel manner. For example, Marsyas, who challenged the god Apollo to a musical contest, was attached by the latter to a tree trunk and skinned alive. The goddess Artemis is said to have changed the hunter Actaeon into a stag and then caused his own hounds to devour him, this because he had seen her nakedness. |
God sent bears to kill 42 children because they were being disrespectful?
Hello?
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One bear. And they were disrespectful of God's prophet.
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| Ryck wrote: | | The Jews and later the Christians, had a much much higher standard of morality. How do you account for it? |
Who cares? What does that have to do with the factual level of the texts?
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The Greeks didn't seriously believe in their gods but followed the lifestyles of their gods because it was easier to live a debased lifestyle rather than an elevated one. In fact, that's human nature.
The Jews and Christians didn't invent their God. Their God gave them instructions to be holy as he himself was. The result, a people with a much higher moral standard.
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| Ryck wrote: | Incorrect. The High Priest Caiaphas finally sold Pontius Pilate on Jesus for sedition because he couldn't get the Roman official to condemn Jesus on local or religious grounds. Do you know what sedition is?
Sedition,n: rebellion or incitement - actions or words intended to provoke or incite rebellion against government authority, or actual rebellion against government authority. -- Encarta World English Dictionary
The end result is death but Jesus was not put to death as a traitor nor as a thief. |
Sedition is a form of treason, oh bright one.
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Oh don't be silly! You have to be a citizen of the country in order to violate your allegiance to it. Jesus Christ was a Jew. He was never a Roman citizen! He wasn't tried for being a traitor to Judea. He was tried for being a seditionist against the rule of Rome.
Get it together, FFT!
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| Ryck wrote: | | You were not listening, were you? I said that the miracles Jesus performed were before crowds of people. Get it now? |
So what?
Yesterday, in front of hundreds of people, I grew an amputated arm back.
Did this actually happen?
If no, why? Hundreds of people saw it, how can you say it didn't happen!?
If yes, you are hilariously gullible. |
If you were to say that you grew your amputated arm back in the middle of a crowd of people in New York City, then say your story. Word of mouth would either corroborate it or shoot it down. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | How is your reading comprehension? I said as initially explained by you - no. |
HOW OLD IS ISLAM.
HOW OLD WAS CHRISTIANITY IN THE 1400S.
WHAT IS SIMILAR ABOUT THESE NUMBERS?
WHY WAS THIS EVER IN QUESTION?
And this somehow makes the Bible different from Greek mythology?
| Ryck wrote: | | One bear. And they were disrespectful of God's prophet. |
Fair enough on the singular, but isn't that excessive? Death for a bit of fun?
Is it moral to kill children because they made fun of a bald man? Is it moral for that bald man to curse them to death for it? Is it moral for a god to send a bear after them on the bald man's behest?
| Ryck wrote: | The Greeks didn't seriously believe in their gods but followed the lifestyles of their gods because it was easier to live a debased lifestyle rather than an elevated one. In fact, that's human nature.
The Jews and Christians didn't invent their God. Their God gave them instructions to be holy as he himself was. The result, a people with a much higher moral standard. |
Which still says absolutely nothing about the factual level of the information. If Abrahamic priests were just more tight-assed than the Greeks all is explained.
| Ryck wrote: | | Oh don't be silly! You have to be a citizen of the country in order to violate your allegiance to it. Jesus Christ was a Jew. He was never a Roman citizen! |
Then why did his parents participate in the census?
| Ryck wrote: | | If you were to say that you grew your amputated arm back in the middle of a crowd of people in New York City, then say your story. Word of mouth would either corroborate it or shoot it down. |
Exactly. Plenty of people would go "what? That never happened, I was on that street at the time and nothing of the sort happened!"
But what if I had said that my great great grandfather stood on the streets of NYC and grew and arm back? And showed you letters written by people apparently talking about it? And obviously there's no one contemporary going "FFT's great great grandfather did not grow his arm back!"
What would you say then? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8329
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: |
The Jews and Christians didn't invent their God. Their God gave them instructions to be holy as he himself was. |
The principle of Occam's Razor says that man created God, and not the other way around, contrary to what religious people believe.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | How is your reading comprehension? I said as initially explained by you - no. |
HOW OLD IS ISLAM.
HOW OLD WAS CHRISTIANITY IN THE 1400S.
WHAT IS SIMILAR ABOUT THESE NUMBERS?
WHY WAS THIS EVER IN QUESTION?
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You made the noise about it. How should I know how your head works?
Words are the little cargo cars of a train that carries what's in your thoughts to others. If you damage how that cargo is transmitted, don't get angry at the reciever for sending it back for another try.
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And this somehow makes the Bible different from Greek mythology?
| Ryck wrote: | | One bear. And they were disrespectful of God's prophet. |
Fair enough on the singular, but isn't that excessive? Death for a bit of fun?
Is it moral to kill children because they made fun of a bald man? Is it moral for that bald man to curse them to death for it? Is it moral for a god to send a bear after them on the bald man's behest?
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Since you don't believe in the Bible, what's your problem? Pretend that it is A STORY and that it NEVER HAPPENED! That should render this entire argument for argument's sake entirely academic, wouldn't you say, FFT? Unless you just like to start and maintain silly arguments.
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| Ryck wrote: | The Greeks didn't seriously believe in their gods but followed the lifestyles of their gods because it was easier to live a debased lifestyle rather than an elevated one. In fact, that's human nature.
The Jews and Christians didn't invent their God. Their God gave them instructions to be holy as he himself was. The result, a people with a much higher moral standard. |
Which still says absolutely nothing about the factual level of the information. If Abrahamic priests were just more tight-assed than the Greeks all is explained.
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Does that mean you prefer open-assed and that being open-assed is a virtue?
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| Ryck wrote: | | Oh don't be silly! You have to be a citizen of the country in order to violate your allegiance to it. Jesus Christ was a Jew. He was never a Roman citizen! |
Then why did his parents participate in the census?
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Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. 2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
Only you would call obeying tax law "participation"! ROFL!!!!
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| Ryck wrote: | | If you were to say that you grew your amputated arm back in the middle of a crowd of people in New York City, then say your story. Word of mouth would either corroborate it or shoot it down. |
Exactly. Plenty of people would go "what? That never happened, I was on that street at the time and nothing of the sort happened!"
But what if I had said that my great great grandfather stood on the streets of NYC and grew and arm back? And showed you letters written by people apparently talking about it? And obviously there's no one contemporary going "FFT's great great grandfather did not grow his arm back!"
What would you say then? |
I'd say that you doth protest too much.
And furthermore I would say that you'd dream-up all sorts of imaginative senarios after senarios to make a non-point.
Shall we move on now? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | Since you don't believe in the Bible, what's your problem? Pretend that it is A STORY and that it NEVER HAPPENED! That should render this entire argument for argument's sake entirely academic, wouldn't you say, FFT? |
Well, I don't have to pretend (  ) but I am simply arguing within context—assuming the Bible to be true doesn't leave you with a perfect moral guide, there is a lot of immoral stuff in the Bible endorsed by God.
| Ryck wrote: | | Does that mean you prefer open-assed and that being open-assed is a virtue? |
Didn't say anything about it. I'm simply pointing to a possible explanation for the differences.
| Ryck wrote: | | Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. 2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. |
Fair enough.
| Ryck wrote: | | I'd say that you doth protest too much. |
Exactly. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | Since you don't believe in the Bible, what's your problem? Pretend that it is A STORY and that it NEVER HAPPENED! That should render this entire argument for argument's sake entirely academic, wouldn't you say, FFT? |
Well, I don't have to pretend ( ) but I am simply arguing within context—assuming the Bible to be true doesn't leave you with a perfect moral guide, there is a lot of immoral stuff in the Bible endorsed by God.
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You offer as a refute the actions brats and their justification to be insulting and cruel to God's prophet? To me, the lession is not to be cruel, harrassing, and disrespectful to people in authority. But you missed the point, of course.
To me, the Bible is a true excellent moral guide.
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| Ryck wrote: | | Does that mean you prefer open-assed and that being open-assed is a virtue? |
Didn't say anything about it. I'm simply pointing to a possible explanation for the differences.
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You weren't explaining for differences. In fact, you didn't answer the question but vectored instead.
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| Ryck wrote: | Luke 2:1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed. 2 (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) 3 And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. 4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David) 5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
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Fair enough.
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Won't admit you were wrong both in the wrong word used and your wrong assumptions but a slight breakthrough nevertheless with a begrudging acknowledgement.
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| Ryck wrote: | | I'd say that you doth protest too much. |
Exactly. |
May I suggest you protest from a position instead of protesting and then finding a position when it presents itself. 
Anybody can be a negator. That's really easy to do. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | You offer as a refute the actions brats and their justification to be insulting and cruel to God's prophet? To me, the lession is not to be cruel, harrassing, and disrespectful to people in authority. But you missed the point, of course.
To me, the Bible is a true excellent moral guide. |
So it's okay to kill children if they're being disrespectful?
And this is an true excellent moral guide?
| Ryck wrote: | | You weren't explaining for differences. In fact, you didn't answer the question but vectored instead. |
There was never a question. You were arguing that due to a specific difference between the Greek and Abrahamic mythology, it's clear that the Greeks invented their gods and the Abrahamics did not. I was pointing out that differences in the level of restrictiveness they entailed did not have any bearing on their merit.
| Ryck wrote: | | Won't admit you were wrong both in the wrong word used and your wrong assumptions but a slight breakthrough nevertheless with a begrudging acknowledgement. |
Perfectly willing to admit that I took the wrong tack, that Jesus got the death of traitors and thieves still stands.
| Ryck wrote: | | May I suggest you protest from a position instead of protesting and then finding a position when it presents itself. |
That whole sequence was to demonstrate why certain figures in the Bible could have been made up wholesale long after the time they were supposedly in. It's definitely likely for Moses, it's plausible for Jesus.
| Ryck wrote: | | Anybody can be a negator. That's really easy to do. |
And? It still needs to be done. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | You offer as a refute the actions brats and their justification to be insulting and cruel to God's prophet? To me, the lession is not to be cruel, harrassing, and disrespectful to people in authority. But you missed the point, of course.
To me, the Bible is a true excellent moral guide. |
So it's okay to kill children if they're being disrespectful?
And this is an true excellent moral guide?
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I didn't say that it is ok to kill children if they are being disrespectful. Where have you seen in thousands of years of Jewish, and later in Christian, tradition where children are killed for disrespect? See how you make grand soap-box issues out of non-issues?
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| Ryck wrote: | | You weren't explaining for differences. In fact, you didn't answer the question but vectored instead. |
There was never a question. You were arguing that due to a specific difference between the Greek and Abrahamic mythology, it's clear that the Greeks invented their gods and the Abrahamics did not. I was pointing out that differences in the level of restrictiveness they entailed did not have any bearing on their merit.
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You didn't. All you did was go into your simplistic nay-say mode. Only now do you offer something which one could view as an in-depth explanation.
So you are saying that morality is an evolutionary invention? God is not required to "teach" Man to be a moral being?
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| Ryck wrote: | | Won't admit you were wrong both in the wrong word used and your wrong assumptions but a slight breakthrough nevertheless with a begrudging acknowledgement. |
Perfectly willing to admit that I took the wrong tack, that Jesus got the death of traitors and thieves still stands.
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I knew you'd never REALLY admit you were wrong! ROFL
So inspite that you used the wrong word and the wrong assumption you still imply, and will lead others to believe by asssociation, that Jesus died for being a traitor and a thief because he died, as you say it, with "traitors and thieves".
By the way, nowhere in the gospels does it say that the two that died with Jesus were traitors. Just says they were thieves. See how you always get your assumptions wrong??? You really shouldn't distort the facts to make your point because someone who knows more will show you up for it.
Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
Let's see you begrudingly agree yet deny you were wrong this time.
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| Ryck wrote: | | May I suggest you protest from a position instead of protesting and then finding a position when it presents itself. |
That whole sequence was to demonstrate why certain figures in the Bible could have been made up wholesale long after the time they were supposedly in. It's definitely likely for Moses, it's plausible for Jesus.
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So now we're getting to the real reason. If it is even remotely Biblical, you HAVE TO negate it just for the sake of negation.
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| Ryck wrote: | | Anybody can be a negator. That's really easy to do. |
And? It still needs to be done. |
No it doesn't. You don't have to be that easy. LOL! That's like being a dumb bull that charges at the color red no matter what happens to be the color red. Heck! If Evolution suddenly got the red treatment you'd charge that too!
(Hmm, not a bad idea!  )
Don't be that easily led and predicable. Take the higher level and be a negator with something to offer instead of a negator who simply shoots at anything that moves.
Like I said before, being a critic just for the sake of criticism is not a position. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | I didn't say that it is ok to kill children if they are being disrespectful. Where have you seen in thousands of years of Jewish, and later in Christian, tradition where children are killed for disrespect? See how you make grand soap-box issues out of non-issues? |
This is just further evidence that the Bible fails as a moral guide. If it was moral to kill children for being disrespectful, people would still do it.
| Ryck wrote: | | You didn't. All you did was go into your simplistic nay-say mode. |
| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | The Jews and later the Christians, had a much much higher standard of morality. How do you account for it? |
Who cares? What does that have to do with the factual level of the texts? |
Simplistic? Sure. Naysaying? Yeah.
Explaining the point I was making as easily as possible? Definitely. Apparently that wasn't enough?
| Ryck wrote: | | So inspite that you used the wrong word |
Rome controlled most of the known world. Even if Jesus wasn't a full citizen he was still a subject. Actions against Rome would therefore be considered treason.
| Ryck wrote: | | you still imply, and will lead others to believe by asssociation, that Jesus died for being a traitor and a thief because he died, as you say it, with "traitors and thieves". |
I never implied that Jesus was a thief. I probably just never got the chance to explain where I was going because you went into simplistic nay-say mode. 
| Ryck wrote: | | By the way, nowhere in the gospels does it say that the two that died with Jesus were traitors. Just says they were thieves. See how you always get your assumptions wrong??? |
What?
Holy hell, man, do you understand what a biased sample is? Is it hard to consider that there were more thieves than traitors?
I'm arguing from Roman history that crucifixtion was a death for thieves and traitors. I'm not arguing from the Bible.
| Ryck wrote: | | You really shouldn't distort the facts to make your point because someone who knows more will show you up for it. |
Or someone that thinks they know everything will bungle up the whole ride without fact checking anything.
| Ryck wrote: | Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
Let's see you begrudingly agree yet deny you were wrong this time. |
Agree to what? You're completely wrong. Wikipedia on Crucifixion in the Roman Empire
"The Romans used it for the crimes of piracy, highway robbery, assassination, forgery, false testimony, mutiny, high treason and rebellion."
| Ryck wrote: | | So now we're getting to the real reason. If it is even remotely Biblical, you HAVE TO negate it just for the sake of negation. |
What? Seriously, what?
| Ryck wrote: | | No it doesn't. |
Yes, it does. If people just went around believing harmful things without anyone to challenge their beliefs, what then?
Like "[substance/activity] will cure my cancer! The FDA is out to get me!" Well, that person is going to die because [substance/activity] won't cure cancer and they aren't going to get the treatments that actually work. Would I be a "nay-sayer" if I tried to point out why they were wrong to believe what they were believing?
| Ryck wrote: | | Don't be that easily led and predicable. Take the higher level and be a negator with something to offer instead of a negator who simply shoots at anything that moves. |
I am. I simply know my audience. "Can I interest you in some atheism?" would go over like a lead balloon. I've got an alternate position, but I know better than to think people are going to switch to it.
| Ryck wrote: | | Like I said before, being a critic just for the sake of criticism is not a position. |
Well it is, it's just not a very good one. Luckily, I'm being a critic as an attempt to get you to understand that the Bible is hardly a good foundation for morals. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:39 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | I didn't say that it is ok to kill children if they are being disrespectful. Where have you seen in thousands of years of Jewish, and later in Christian, tradition where children are killed for disrespect? See how you make grand soap-box issues out of non-issues? |
This is just further evidence that the Bible fails as a moral guide. If it was moral to kill children for being disrespectful, people would still do it.
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Incorrect because nowhere is there a command to kill children for being disrespectful.
See how silly you make yourself when you make wild assumptions and then jump to conclusions with them?
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| Ryck wrote: | | You didn't. All you did was go into your simplistic nay-say mode. |
| FFT wrote: | | Ryck wrote: | | The Jews and later the Christians, had a much much higher standard of morality. How do you account for it? |
Who cares? What does that have to do with the factual level of the texts? |
Simplistic? Sure. Naysaying? Yeah.
Explaining the point I was making as easily as possible? Definitely. Apparently that wasn't enough?
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By nay-saying?
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| Ryck wrote: | | So inspite that you used the wrong word |
Rome controlled most of the known world. Even if Jesus wasn't a full citizen he was still a subject. Actions against Rome would therefore be considered treason.
| Ryck wrote: | | you still imply, and will lead others to believe by asssociation, that Jesus died for being a traitor and a thief because he died, as you say it, with "traitors and thieves". |
I never implied that Jesus was a thief. I probably just never got the chance to explain where I was going because you went into simplistic nay-say mode.
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*I* went into nay-saying mode? ROFL!!!!
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| Ryck wrote: | | By the way, nowhere in the gospels does it say that the two that died with Jesus were traitors. Just says they were thieves. See how you always get your assumptions wrong??? |
What?
Holy hell, man, do you understand what a biased sample is? Is it hard to consider that there were more thieves than traitors?
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Are you this casually forgiving of yourself with your assumptions even when your assumptions are wrong?
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| Ryck wrote: | | You really shouldn't distort the facts to make your point because someone who knows more will show you up for it. |
Or someone that thinks they know everything will bungle up the whole ride without fact checking anything.
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That's right, FFT! Make that a post-it note for your monitor.
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| Ryck wrote: | Matthew 27:38 Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.
Mark 15:27 And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
Let's see you begrudingly agree yet deny you were wrong this time. |
Agree to what? You're completely wrong. Wikipedia on Crucifixion in the Roman Empire
"The Romans used it for the crimes of piracy, highway robbery, assassination, forgery, false testimony, mutiny, high treason and rebellion."
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Wasn't it you, or P., who advised me against using Wikipedia because it is not an acredited encyclopedia.
Anyway, the Romans used Crucifixion for this and more. Even for the fun of it! (Reference Nero.) But according to your thinking Jesus was a pirate, highway robber, assassinator, forgerer, liar, mutinous, traitor (there's that word!), and rebellion maker because he was crucified???
Where did you learn your argumentation skills from? Do you want me to explain your fallicies and errors or can you figure this one out for yourself?
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