Paul's 'thorn in the flesh'

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

II Corinthians 12:7, "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thron in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Satan hates the truth and lay in wait at every turn to destroy the message of the 'revelation of the Power of the Resurrection' that Paul had received from God.

BUFFET: (Gr. 2852 STRONG'S) rap with the fist.

Paul's thorn was a messenger of Satan.

Paul endured 5 times, 40 stripes
3 times beaten with rods
1 time stone and left for dead
2 times ship wrecked
a night and day in the sea (deep)
In his frequent journeys was in perils of water, perils of robbers, in perils of his own country men, in perils in the city, wilderness, sea and false brethern, not to mention his years in prison.

Paul was an Apostle of Christ with authority over the demonic powers of darkness, but God said to Paul, I have given you a messenge of Satan to 'rap you with his fist' so that you will not get puffed up beyond measure because of the revelation I have given you, who at the first has received more revelations than any man.

FOR IN WEAKNESS I AM MADE STRONG.

9) "And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee; for my strength is made perfect in weakness. MOST GLADLY THEREFORE WILL I RATHER GLORY IN MY INFIRMITIES, THAT THE POWER OF CHRIST MAY REST UPON ME."

For out of them all the Lord delivered him.

In Christ, Judy

Yehushuan · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject:

Hi Nana,

Paul’s thorn in the flesh was a pain in the neck.

What many Bible interpreters fail to realize is that much communication, even today, is done through symbolism and colloquial figures of speech. Paul talked about those who put their confidence in the flesh (cf. Phil. 3:4), and by this he meant specifically circumcision. To Paul, the flesh was not sexual in nature nor even concerned with broader human desires, but rather was religious in nature and expressly an epithet to mean Judaism. In broader terms, the flesh deals with any spirit of religion, and the various doctrines that men make up to convince themselves that they are something before God (haughty or exalted in God’s sight beyond other men).

Galatians 6:13 For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

Philippians 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

And Paul considered this preaching of circumcision as the measure of stature and righteousness before God to be a message from Satan, and this is one verse in the NIV that correctly conveys the abject frustration of Paul.

NIV: (Galatians 5:12) As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Literally, the Greek says cut the whole thing off (as opposed to the foreskin).

We know that κολαφίζω (KJV = buffet) is rooted in κολάζω from κόλος (dwarf) and carries the concept of curtailing by chastisement. One is “put down” or attempted to be stopped by ridicule or rebuke. This messenger from Satan attempted to dwarf or reduce the stature of Paul’s authority by another gospel (message).

Today, when someone makes an insult, my kids say, “Ohhh, Burn.” A generation ago, one would, “take a jab” at someone. κολαφίζω is used here as a figure of speech, meaning to “take a shot at” or “punch out” or “smack down” to dwarf size. Hence a better translation would use the verb “to belittle” (the evangelist of Satan to belittle me).

Paul’s ministry was constantly assailed by what is known as the Judaisers, a group of men from James (cf. Gal. 2:12) who traveled into a city after Paul left, to preach that circumcision was necessary for Paul’s converts, along with strict adherence to the Judaic law. As Paul approached the Lord three times for this annoyance (thorn) to be stopped, it is obvious from the Lord’s answer – that Grace is sufficient for Paul to preach, (for ye are saved by Grace through faith) – that God would not stop the messenger from Satan to preach what is against faith, which is a salvation by the circumcision of flesh – the gospel that is no gospel (cf. Gal 1:6,7).

In addition, Paul’s ministry was under constant assault that his gospel was somehow suspect because Paul was not of the original 12.

(1 Corinthians 9:1) Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

(Galatians 1:1) Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man {e.g. Mathias cf. Acts 1:26}, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

(2 Corinthians 12:11,12) I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing. Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

And this last verse, which is a declaration of Paul’s authority as an apostle is the summary verse of the very passage which talks about Paul’s pain in the neck (James tboJ).

One last comment, the Greek does not have the word “in” before the words “the flesh.” It does not say, “σκόλοψ (thorn) εν (in) τη (the) σαρκί (flesh). “En” is not present, it is imputed by the translator. It could just as easily be translated, “about the flesh” or “from those of the flesh” or even “by the flesh” or “Flesh Thorn” which may be a moniker - the title of an enemy.

Yehu

PS: 2 Corinthians 11:23 “Are they ministers of Christ? (I speak as a fool) I am more; in labours more abundant, in stripes above measure, in prisons more frequent, in deaths oft.” Actually indicates that Paul did indeed die and was resurrected – over and over agin. This explains the rather odd Greek term in Philippians 3:11 “If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. It doesn’t say “resurrection” but out-resurrection or “final” resurrection. What could stop someone who when killed by the enemies of the gospel just kept coming back?
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theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

1 cor. 15:9-10b

for i am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because i persecuted the church of GOD. but by the grace of GOD i am what i am(MY grace is sufficient): and HIS grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain(perfect in weakness)...

just how i see it...

Nobby · Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2006 6:31 pm Post subject:

Hi Tss & Yehu, glad to have you back! Very Happy

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theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

good to be back nobby...and to see you again... Very Happy

nana · Bear Cub Joined: 01 May 2006 Posts: 625

Greetings,

But Paul said his thorn in the flesh was, " A MESSENGER OF SATAN TO BUFFET ME".

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

that's right....and it goes well with the verses quoted...paul obviously still carried some guilt in his heart for his own old actions...feeling like he should not be an apostle...because of his fleshly actions...(according to his own words)...but by grace he was...

there are few beatings worse than those ones that come from our past...when the devil keeps throwing up to ones conscience what they did before...over and over tormenting the mind...the fleshly mind...that says ones sin is so bad...they don't deserve to be one of HIS...to believe that lie is an assault on grace....and it is one of the enemies favorite tools...it works so well...

to keep us thinking on self...and not GOD...our sin...not his grace...and weakens the believer...sometimes...choking out any good fruit, and whithering them away....

but HIS grace is sufficient to cover and forgive all debts...

Nobby · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 8:26 am Post subject:

Hi nana, the Hamster, Very Happy

Sure glad to have you back!
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Yehushuan · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 9:58 am Post subject:

Yehushuan · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Paul's 'thorn in the flesh'

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject:

HAHA
Thought you all could hide from me huh??

LOL...

Hey guys good to have the board back up!!

Thorn in the flesh...tells me it's a physical thing, otherwise it would be a spiritual thorn.

A messenger to buffet me....
Sounds like when Jacob was wrestling with that angel.
What was that wrestling all about anyways?

Maybe it's the same fight between Paul and the messenger as Jacob and the angel?

Jacob overcame the angel and Jesus said that His grace was sufficient for Paul, so tells me Paul overcame too.

so is the thorn an earthy desire or a spiritual one?

Paul didn't have any kids right? I'm wondering because he calls Timothy his son. Is Timothy his son after the flesh?? Or after the spirit?

Just thinking out loud..

HEY! good to see you all!!
Peace
Lone
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theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

hey lone!!!....glad to see you back...also...somewhere in that post of yours...i had this thought...

when paul was asking why only he and barnabas could not take wives like peter and the other apostles...maybe he was wanting a...w...wo...woman... Embarassed

...(man...that desire would take a lot of grace to get over...) Embarassed

....

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject:

Hey tss!!

You know you can cross reference everything in the NT with the OT?
It's the same story over and over again only in newer terms and more definition.

I bet your right about that w..w..woman thing...

Kind of like Solomon. It seems like all the good men in the OT had a problem with wives or many of them. Solomon had like 700 wives and 300 concubines.. Shocked

I asked my hubby..what would you do if you had to keep 1000 women happy?
He said he'd go hang himself LOLOL...one wifes not bad enough..LOL

And when did that change anyways? Back in the OT you guys could have as many wives as you wanted but today if you have more than 1 it's a crime. And why pray tell was it ok for the man and not the woman hmmm?

I don't know iif it is meant physically though, to be honest.
I believe that many wives refers to many different religions and beliefs.
That's why men were told to stay in their own nationalities, so they wouldn't wander after other wives gods.

So was Pauls thorn in his flesh, the fact that he was having trouble disentangling himself from the old covenant? to die so that he could be free from that wife/religion, to follow the new one?

A woman is bound by the law as long as her husband lives according to the old law. Was Paul having trouble dying to that old way?
So women... Rolling Eyes

geesh....depends on how you look at it I guess.
I tend to think it was his seperating or divorcing or dying from the old ways to being remarried to the new.
He was a Zealot for the law. It must have been difficult to set aside the old customs and habits and beliefs. Like living with a wife for I don't know how old Paul was when he was going to damascus, but for that amount of time to be raised and married to that way of life, to have to become dead to the very law he loved and abided by and killed for...ugghh.
That could be a very great thorn in the flesh.

So we talking about women? could be..
We talking about the church? could be...

All depends on how you look at it.

God Bless Ya tss
good to see ya!!
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

LOL...i agree with your hubby...i love this topic...and have heard so many possible explainations....it is fun to talk about...i will stick with mine but love everyone elses...i have heard baldnes, blindness, deafness, too short in stature...you name...

when we get there we can ask him face to face.... Laughing

what if he looks at us and says lovingly..."mind our own business...if i wanted you to know...i would have told you when i wrote 2 cor..." Shocked

then we would never know... Shocked

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2006 7:51 am Post subject:

just a couple references to thorns in the OT:

Num 33:55 But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them [shall be] pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

Jos 23:13 Know for a certainty that the LORD your God will no more drive out [any of] these nations from before you; but they shall be snares and traps unto you, and scourges in your sides, and thorns in your eyes, until ye perish from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.

Jdg 2:3 Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be [as thorns] in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you.

peace
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.