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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | To an extent... sure. |
To the extent that they deserve to die?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | But that is not the issue and you know it. During war, people get killed. Civilians get killed. When one side does everything possible and reasonable to prevent harming civilians... and the other does everything possible and reasonable to harm civilians... and all you can do is snivel about 'innocent Lebanese' getting killed... your argument quickly falls apart. |
Who is getting killed here?
Last I checked, Hezbollah kidnapped a couple of people, and Israel is retaliating by attacking Lebanese citizens.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Unless of course, you think Israel is getting exactly what it deserves. |
What is Israel "getting," exactly?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | The people of Lebanon have done absolutely nothing to prevent Hezbollah from operating freely among them... |
Right. Absolutely nothing at all. Nothing like trying to disarm Hezbollah entirely since the Syrians pulled out. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8326
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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To my knowledge, the only person who has done a reasonable analysis of the Middle East situation is me. Here's what I think:
All of the Muslim countries in the Middle East are evil, and Israel is evil. Anyone who wholeheartedly supports Israel is an idiot, and anyone who wholeheartedly supports Lebanon or Iran or Saudi Arabia or whatever is an idiot.
An objective person can find all sorts of strong criticisms to make of Israel:
1. They kicked the Palestinians off of their land and made them refugees. If someone did this to me, I'd be pretty angry.
2. They have ghettoized and mistreated the Palestinians living inside their borders, which is particularly heinous, considering how the Nazis ghettoized the Jews.
3. They routinely provoke the Palestinians and other neighbours, and show very little restraint.
4. It is a racist state which gives favorable treatment to Jews over others.
An objective person can also find all sorts of strong criticims to make of all of Israel's neighbours:
1. Most of them are racist states as well, with state religions, and no separation between church and state.
2. They routinely provoke Israel, and use it as a reason for not killing each other; while Israel exists, the Shiites and Sunnis (who would normally be killing each other) use it as an excuse to focus their hatred on the Jews instead.
3. They have no qualms about specifically targeting civilians, either in rocket or suicide attacks.
4. They are not even remotely committed to peace in the region. When Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah did not disband, despite the fact that its whole reason for existence was to get Israel out of Southern Lebanon.
Anyways, that's my take on the situation. Both sides are evil, and neither side deserves our sympathy. The only people that deserve our sympathy are the innocent civilians that are being killed in the area, that is if there really are any innocent civilians in the area; it is very hard to tell. The only definitely innocent civilians as far as I can tell are children.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | To an extent... sure. |
To the extent that they deserve to die?
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I think Trinity explained it well in the next quote. I suggest you re-read.
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | But that is not the issue and you know it. During war, people get killed. Civilians get killed. When one side does everything possible and reasonable to prevent harming civilians... and the other does everything possible and reasonable to harm civilians... and all you can do is snivel about 'innocent Lebanese' getting killed... your argument quickly falls apart. |
Who is getting killed here?
Last I checked, Hezbollah kidnapped a couple of people, and Israel is retaliating by attacking Lebanese citizens.
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Then ask Hezbollah not to start and wage war blending with the civil population. Then ask the civil population not to be so naive to offer passive assistance to Hezbollah for storing rockets and providing their backyards as rocket launch bases. Because if they allow their bodies and their homes to be militarized by Hezbollah, they become viable military targets themselves.
Those Lebonese should get the heads examined, really, because Hezbollah is not doing them nor their country any favors. How could they allow Hezbollah to do this and give assistance to Hezbollah at the expense of the safety of their families and the future of their country? And just when Lebanon was experiencing their best Summer economically and the outlook for the country was very bright.
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | The people of Lebanon have done absolutely nothing to prevent Hezbollah from operating freely among them... |
Right. Absolutely nothing at all. Nothing like trying to disarm Hezbollah entirely since the Syrians pulled out. |
Agreed. They allowed Hezbollah to fester. Big mistake. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | ... ... The only definitely innocent civilians as far as I can tell are children. |
I think the only innocents are the children as well - on both sides.
Perhaps the meek little children should inherit the Middle East. Send all the adults to the South Pole to cool off - literally. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | Those Lebonese should get the heads examined, really, because Hezbollah is not doing them nor their country any favors. How could they allow Hezbollah to do this and give assistance to Hezbollah at the expense of the safety of their families and the future of their country? |
They aren't sitting passively by, and haven't been. Where did you get that idea?
| Ryck wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | The people of Lebanon have done absolutely nothing to prevent Hezbollah from operating freely among them... |
Right. Absolutely nothing at all. Nothing like trying to disarm Hezbollah entirely since the Syrians pulled out. |
Agreed. They allowed Hezbollah to fester. Big mistake. |
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
The Lebanese have been trying to completely disarm Hezbollah since the Syrians pulled out in 2005. Look it up. Do that "research" thing before making sweeping generalizations about the population of an entire country. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | The Lebanese have been trying to completely disarm Hezbollah since the Syrians pulled out in 2005. Look it up. Do that "research" thing before making sweeping generalizations about the population of an entire country. |
They have? What have they been doing... I missed it too?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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"We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:15 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | And individual citizens are responsible for the inaction of their government? |
And actions...
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
I'm biased, but I think it's a pretty good model...
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | To my knowledge, the only person who has done a reasonable analysis of the Middle East situation is me. Here's what I think: |
P#s, you're usually pretty reasonable, so I think you meant this "tongue in cheek"...if not, we need to get you to the UN ASAP! 
| P1234567890 wrote: |
All of the Muslim countries in the Middle East are evil, and Israel is evil. |
I try to refrain from "moral judgements", so I'll just say that both sides have a point of view....
| P1234567890 wrote: |
1. They kicked the Palestinians off of their land and made them refugees. |
sort of...
"When they [UN delegation] returned, the delegates of seven nations — Canada, Czechoslovakia, Guatemala, The Netherlands, Peru, Sweden and Uruguay — recommended the establishment of two separate states, Jewish and Arab, to be joined by economic union, with Jerusalem an internationalized enclave. Three nations — India, Iran and Yugoslavia — recommended a unitary state with Arab and Jewish provinces. Australia abstained.
The Jews of Palestine were not satisfied with the small territory allotted to them by the Commission, nor were they happy that Jerusalem was severed from the Jewish State; nevertheless, they welcomed the compromise. The Arabs rejected the UNSCOP's recommendations. [BTW, that's an Arab League, not just Palestinians that made that decision]
The ad hoc committee of the UN General Assembly rejected the Arab demand for a unitary Arab state. The majority recommendation for partition was subsequently adopted 33-13 with 10 abstentions on November 29, 1947" (source)
The refugee stuff didn't happen until 1948 when Syria, Jordan, and Egypt thought they could wipe Israel off the map and told the Palestinians to get out of the way...they made themselves refugees.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
2. They have ghettoized and mistreated the Palestinians living inside their borders, which is particularly heinous, considering how the Nazis ghettoized the Jews. |
Again, sort of. Culturally, I'd say that Arabs are happy to play the victim, so they don't help themselves as much as they could. I do agree that allowing Jews to settle in the Arab areas, and then sending in the military to protect them was not good for peace...at all. The Israeli government finally made them leave, but it should never have been allowed.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
3. They routinely provoke the Palestinians and other neighbours, and show very little restraint. |
How? I agree that Israel often brings a gun to a knife fight, but how many Palesteninian buses get blown up by whacked out Kibutzers?
| P1234567890 wrote: |
4. It is a racist state which gives favorable treatment to Jews over others.
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Not my personal experience....in places like Haifa, the Arab community blended very well with the secular Jewish population....that's anecdotal, I know, but thought I'd mention it.
| P1234567890 wrote: | Arab states comments
1. Most of them are racist states as well, with state religions, and no separation between church and state. |
Agree...and little tolerance for Judaism in those countries (generally)....Jordan and Qatar are better than Iran or Saudi Arabia....
| P1234567890 wrote: |
2. They routinely provoke Israel, and use it as a reason for not killing each other; while Israel exists, the Shiites and Sunnis (who would normally be killing each other) use it as an excuse to focus their hatred on the Jews instead. |
Yep.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
3. They have no qualms about specifically targeting civilians, either in rocket or suicide attacks. |
and lets not forget human shields....
| P1234567890 wrote: |
4. They are not even remotely committed to peace in the region. When Israel pulled out of Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah did not disband, despite the fact that its whole reason for existence was to get Israel out of Southern Lebanon. |
See point 2 above.
| P1234567890 wrote: | | The only definitely innocent civilians as far as I can tell are children. |
and to that, I can only say "Amen" 
Last point, it's important to remember that both groups are a people with LONG memories and little tradition of "let bygones be bygones". In Iran, at a rally, people were chanting the name of an ancient battle between Mohammed and a Jewish tribe at an oasis in 628 (or so)...to them, that was last week.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 2:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | "We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir
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So very true.
I think our former attorney general said it best:
| Quote: | | "In Christianity God sent His Son to die for us. In Islam, men send their sons to die for God." |
or words to that effect... 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5303
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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Trinity, I just sent Pondering a short note that the boards are up! 
Glad to have you back! 
_________________
Much Love Nobby
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | They aren't sitting passively by, and haven't been. Where did you get that idea?
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EXACTLY! Or do you believe that a little Arab Fairy plants Katyusha rockets at the feet of each Hezbollah militant that morning to shoot into Israel that day?
| FFT wrote: |
| Ryck wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | The people of Lebanon have done absolutely nothing to prevent Hezbollah from operating freely among them... |
Right. Absolutely nothing at all. Nothing like trying to disarm Hezbollah entirely since the Syrians pulled out. |
Agreed. They allowed Hezbollah to fester. Big mistake. |
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
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Actually, you don't. Besides a loosing grip on reality.
| FFT wrote: |
The Lebanese have been trying to completely disarm Hezbollah since the Syrians pulled out in 2005. Look it up. Do that "research" thing before making sweeping generalizations about the population of an entire country.
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I have. And we have current events to show that the Lebanese has done little, or are unable, to do anything about Hezbollah.
I suggest you guard against persistant burying of your head in the sand. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | "We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir
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That's a great quote, Pondering! |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
P#s, you're usually pretty reasonable, so I think you meant this "tongue in cheek"...if not, we need to get you to the UN ASAP!
...
...
Last point, it's important to remember that both groups are a people with LONG memories and little tradition of "let bygones be bygones". In Iran, at a rally, people were chanting the name of an ancient battle between Mohammed and a Jewish tribe at an oasis in 628 (or so)...to them, that was last week. |
Rather than quote your entire post of responses, I'll save some space and say thanks for that balanced review.
I think with the blame game there is plenty of blame to go around. But to anyone with a fair amount of objectivity it should be fairly discernable which of the two likes to use any aggression as a pretext for revenge - regardless of whether that same one provoked the aggression in the first place! |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | "We will only have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us."
- Golda Meir
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So very true.
I think our former attorney general said it best:
| Quote: | | "In Christianity God sent His Son to die for us. In Islam, men send their sons to die for God." |
or words to that effect... |
Another great quote.
Here are a couple of quotes which seems to sum things up.
Jesus:
"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" - Matthew 5:44
Mohammed:
"Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know" - Koran 8:60 |
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