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psalm90:3
Little Guppy
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 32
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 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: Water baptism |
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Compare the number of times baptism is used with WATER and without
Religion has always tryed to hold onto past confirmations of Gods Glorifing. As the Children in the wilderness learned, when the
pillar of fire and the cloud moved on...they had to also or they were
left out. Water baptism was Johns he said so, its out ward and the
new creation man is a living epistle, the work is being done on the inside Let us not forget that Peter was
bold and spoke sometimes before he thought, I believe and suggest
that Peter learned during his walk just as you and I are that The Lord
is moving upward.
And Praise His Name! Lone I like what you said about FIRE PURIFING. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking, what would have happened if those who were in Egypt decided not to go through the red sea and follow moses?
They would say..we only have to worry about being purified out in the wilderness. Being tested with whether we will only go out and get the bread on six days, or whether we will try to get some on the seventh too.
Did they really have to go through the red sea first? Couldn't they have just skipped over that part and met up with them in the wilderness later??
Peace
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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psalm90:3
Little Guppy
Joined: 07 Aug 2006
Posts: 32
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: ???? |
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What??? Did they go through water or walk on dry land? They followed
and believed...they were immersed. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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" He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
The clarity of this text is such that needs no translation.
If you believe, then get baptised and if you don't believe, you obviously won't be baptised and shall be lost.
What ever baptism does for an adult, so long as you do it in faith through believing, the Lord promises that you will be saved.
thunder
_________________
Submit to God in Christ |
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dispen4ever
Sea Monkey
Joined: 23 Nov 2006
Posts: 13
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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So sad. So very, very sad. Our Lord lived a sinless life before us, suffered and bled and died, and rose again, the penalty for sin and sins having been paid, and we have the gall to say that getting dipped in water is an additional requirement. Let's see .... how does that scripture go? By grace are ye saved thru faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Wow! Thanks, God! I've got this great gift! Now, in order to earn it, to deserve it, I'll go get dunked! Yippee!  |
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delanoyz
Tadpole
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:49 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So sad. So very, very sad. Our Lord lived a sinless life before us, suffered and bled and died, and rose again, the penalty for sin and sins having been paid, and we have the gall to say that getting dipped in water is an additional requirement. |
Actually, what's even more sad is that Jesus did all that and then gave a very clear command to His disciples in Matthew 28:18-20 and then there are people who want to dismiss it or try to argue it away. Acts 2:36 says that Jesus is both Lord and Christ. If He is Lord, then there shouldn't be anything that we wouldn't do for Him. It's funny how people try to say that being baptized is a work. Who's doing the work? A person doesn't baptize themselves. Romans 6:3-7 says that it's the participation in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It also says that it unites us with Him. So, how can someone be a Christian and not participate in Jesus death, burial, and ressurection? Or how can someone be a Christian if they are not united with Christ? Or what about if they don't have the Holy Spirit, which is the deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (Ephesians 1:14). The Bible says that there is only 1 way to receive the Holy Spirit...baptism. Look at Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
What about the forgiveness of sins? How is someone forgiven if they are not baptized for the forgiveness of their sins? How was Paul forgiven for his sins? Look at Acts 22:16:
16And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.' |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| delanoyz wrote: |
Actually, what's even more sad is that Jesus did all that and then gave a very clear command to His disciples in Matthew 28:18-20 and then there are people who want to dismiss it or try to argue it away. |
You are completely misinterpreting what is being commanded here. The important first step in understanding any concept, is to first properly define your terms. If you begin with a false pretext, your conclusion will automatically be wrong, even if your logic is sound. The word "baptize" in our English Bible is an untranslated Greek word, or rather a transliteration of the word "baptizo." Baptizo in Greek refers to something being immersed into something else. Water could be involved if the context dictates this, but "baptizo" doesn't necessarily involve water when the context doesn't dictate it.
Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
This "baptizo" or immersion is specifically stated as an immersion "into the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit", which means in who they are, what they stand for, and represent, and to teach people to observe their commandments and repent of sin.
This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with water, and the false doctrine of baptismal regeneration has misled millions of professing Christians as to what "baptizo" is all about. While the apostles did perform this ceremony innitially, we are told in scripture that they quickly realized that the true immersion was into Christ Jesus by the Holy Spirit. This is not done through the water ceremony, but was meant to represent the true immersion to the Jews through John. Jesus Christ fulfilled this ceremonial representation with the true "baptism":
John 17:20-26 " I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. "The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. "O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them ."
Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Salvation isn't by being immersed in water, it is by literally being immersed into Christ Jesus himself. The water ceremony of John was given initially to lead the Jewish people to repentance and to symbolize the real immersion which was into Christ Jesus, through the immersion with the Holy Spirit:
Matthew 3:11 " As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Acts 11:15-16 " And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Titus 3:5 He saved us , not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit ,
Ephesians 1:13 " In Him , you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,"
Ephesians 4:30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption .
The apostles of Christ began to perform the water ceremony initially until both Peter and Paul realized that it was unnecessary since the real baptism of the Spirit was now in effect.
Acts 11:15-18 " And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. "
Acts 19:1-6 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, " No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, that no man should say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel , not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void.
The apostles themselves came to realize that the water baptism of John was purely symbolic of the real baptism to come which was to be immersed into Christ Jesus through the immersion with the Holy Spirit. The water ceremony is unnecessary and misses the entire point, so it often becomes more of a stumbling block than anything else.
| Quote: | The Bible says that there is only 1 way to receive the Holy Spirit...baptism. Look at Acts 2:38
38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. |
You receive the Holy Spirit by being "immersed in the name of Christ" and not through water. This verse has absolutely nothing to do with water, but unfortunately many people have water on the brain whenever they see the transliterated word "baptism" which is exactly why the early false denominations kept the word untranslated. They have managed to dupe the unsuspecting masses of sheep into a false Gospel by redefining the term through keeping it untranslated.
We are saved by being immersed "in Christ Jesus" by being "immersed in His name" through being "immersed with the Holy Spirit of God." Water plays no role in any of these immersions, and was meant initially to be a foreshadowing of the "immersion" fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Unfortunately many have fallen for this deception and thus miss the point of the Gospel entirely.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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delanoyz
Tadpole
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the Greek lesson, but what you are saying does not line up with what the Bible actually says happened in Acts. See, I might be able to believe what you're saying except that there are many examples of baptism after Jesus death, burial, and resurrection and they all involved water. If that's not what Jesus meant in the Great Commission or what Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38, then how do we explain what the disciples were doing? Let's look at some examples.
Acts 8:30-39:
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."[e]
34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.
Ok, so here is a perfect example of Biblical conversion. You have the Ethiopian who had converted to Judaism and was on his way back from worshiping at Jerusalem and was reading Isaiah. Philip is led by the Spirit to talk to him and after asking him if he understands what he's reading, he begins to explain that the passage is talking about Jesus. "Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." Ok, so he told the Ethiopian "the good news about Jesus," which is the Gospel. The very next thing that happens is they pass by some water and what does the Eunech say? ""Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Ok, so why would the Eunech have said this unless "the good news about Jesus" included teaching him about baptism in water? Of course, we see what happened next...Philip baptized him in water. Then the Ethiopian goes on rejoicing. Why? Because he had been saved! Do you think that he believed in Jesus when he got baptized? I would think so considering that he was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And speaking of the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:38 he received forgiveness for his sins and he received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized. Let's look at another example in Acts 10:
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
Here is Peter preaching again, but this time it's to the Gentiles. Later in Acts 11:14 he is explaining what happened to the other disciples what happened and he says "He will bring you a message through which you and your household will be saved." So, just like in Acts 2:38 he is telling the Gentiles how to be saved when suddenly the Holy Spirit came on all those that were there listening and they began to speak in tongues. So, does this mean that they were saved at this point? Are they an exception to what Peter said earlier when he said "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call?" That would make Peter and God out to be liar, so there has to be another explanation. Look at verse 47, Peter says "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." There are 2 key points here:
1) Even though these people had the Holy Spirit poured out on them, they still needed to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Notice how Peter “ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”
2)Peter said they received the Holy Spirit just as they had. They is referring to Peter and the rest of the Apostles that were there on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. How did they receive the Holy Spirit? It reminded Peter of what happened to him, because all of the sudden the people were speaking in tongues. Acts 11 explains why this had to happen and that the promise of the Holy Spirit was for both the Jews and the Gentiles, it was just administered at different times.
Now let’s look at Acts 18:24-26 and the example of Apollos:
24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.
So, Apollos knew about Jesus and was teaching others about Him but he only knew about the baptism of John. So, Priscilla and Aquila, who were disciples of Jesus "explained to him the way of God more adequately." Let's read on in Acts 19:
1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
So, now we see that John's baptism was done in water and was only for repentance. It is not the same baptism that Peter and the Apostles preached. It served it's purpose: to prepare the way for Jesus. Now, baptism was to be done in Jesus name and still in water, but the difference is that it is for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus told Nicademus in John 3:5-7:
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.'
Water and Spirit...they both happen at the same time, which is why Paul says in [b]Ephesians 4:4: 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| delanoyz wrote: | Thanks for the Greek lesson, but what you are saying does not line up with what the Bible actually says happened in Acts. See, I might be able to believe what you're saying except that there are many examples of baptism after Jesus death, burial, and resurrection and they all involved water. If that's not what Jesus meant in the Great Commission or what Peter was talking about in Acts 2:38, then how do we explain what the disciples were doing? Let's look at some examples.
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I already addressed that in my previous post. Yes the apostles continued in this tradition initially, but they themselves quickly abandoned the practice and it is not mentioned again in the New Testament except to say that it is irrelevant. Baptism with water was a foreshadowing of the baptism of the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into Christ Jesus eternally. Once the fulfillment of the foreshadowing came, the foreshadow was no longer relevant. Just as we no longer need circumcision because the true meaning has been fulfilled in that it is of the heart by the Spirit, and we no longer sacrifice animals because Christ sacrificed himself once for all; in the same way water baptism is replaced by what it was always meant to represent which is immersion with God's Spirit to clean our wicked hearts and restore us to Him.
As Jesus said "You must be born again." The one who is greater than John has now fulfilled the ceremonial rite of baptism and He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit and fire. Water only washes the flesh but the Holy Spirit cleans the heart. This is the New Covenant that God has made with mankind and what it means to be born of God. Unless you are born again you cannot see the kingdom of God. Symbolic ceremonies were for the Jews to foreshadow the new Covenant to come. Now that He has fulfilled the symbol, the symbol is no longer of value. If your faith is in performing religious ceremonies then you have missed the entire point of the Gospel.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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delanoyz
Tadpole
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sealed wrote: | | Yes the apostles continued in this tradition initially, but they themselves quickly abandoned the practice and it is not mentioned again in the New Testament except to say that it is irrelevant. |
Please show me the scriptures you are basing this statement on. Look at what Peter says in 1 Peter 3:18-21:
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
It doesn't sound like Peter thought it was irrelevant to me. |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| delanoyz wrote: | | Quote: | | Yes the apostles continued in this tradition initially, but they themselves quickly abandoned the practice and it is not mentioned again in the New Testament except to say that it is irrelevant. |
Please show me the scriptures you are basing this statement on. Look at what Peter says in 1 Peter 3:18-21:
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19through whom[d] also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge[e] of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
It doesn't sound like Peter thought it was irrelevant to me. |
It says exactly what I've been telling you "not the removal of dirt from the body" or in other words water does not save you, "but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" is the immersion which saves, which is by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit or in other words being born of God. Peter is specifically refuting the concept of baptismal regeneration here and saying that the immersion that saves is having your heart renewed by God through His Spirit.
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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delanoyz
Tadpole
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It says exactly what I've been telling you "not the removal of dirt from the body" or in other words water does not save you, "but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" is the immersion which saves, which is by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit or in other words being born of God. Peter is specifically refuting the concept of baptismal regeneration here and saying that the immersion that saves is having your heart renewed by God through His Spirit. |
I see you trying really hard to explain it away, but what you are saying does not line up with the rest of the scriptures. You are reading into the passage too much, when you should just read it for what it says. "Not the removal of dirt from the body" is simply Peter's way of saying that baptism is not a bath. "The pledge of a good conscience" refers to the committment that a person is making at baptism. The fact is that the scriptures says that baptism saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. You might not like it, but there is no way around it. Like it says in Colossians 2:11-12:
11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
and Galatians 3:26-29:
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
How is someone baptized into Christ? Look at Romans 6:3-7:
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.
Do some research about the early Church and what they believed and practiced. |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| delanoyz wrote: | | Quote: | | It says exactly what I've been telling you "not the removal of dirt from the body" or in other words water does not save you, "but the pledge of a good conscience toward God" is the immersion which saves, which is by the washing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit or in other words being born of God. Peter is specifically refuting the concept of baptismal regeneration here and saying that the immersion that saves is having your heart renewed by God through His Spirit. |
I see you trying really hard to explain it away, but what you are saying does not line up with the rest of the scriptures. |
I'm not trying to do anything. I'm accepting what that verse states without adding anything to it. You on the other hand are trying to twist it around to promote baptismal regeneration when this is exactly what Peter is refuting.
| Quote: | | You are reading into the passage too much, when you should just read it for what it says. "Not the removal of dirt from the body" is simply Peter's way of saying that baptism is not a bath. |
Yes, the symbolic bath of John the baptist was to lead the Jews to repentance, and prepare the way for Jesus Christ who fulfilled this symbolic immersion with the real immersion, which was into Him through His Spirit.
| Quote: | | "The pledge of a good conscience" refers to the committment that a person is making at baptism. The fact is that the scriptures says that baptism saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. |
Yes, but as I explained earlier "baptism" is an untranslated word which simply means that something is immersed into something else. Baptizo does save you, but not the water ceremony which only washes the flesh. Immersion into Christ who renews your conscience through the regeneration of the Holy Spirit is the "baptizo" which saves.
| Quote: | You might not like it, but there is no way around it. Like it says in Colossians 2:11-12:
11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature,[a] not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. |
Exactly my point. Not a baptism done by the hands of men, but by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit. We do not circumcise literally anymore by law, because circumcision was always meant to symbolize the circumcision of the heart by the Holy Spirit. The same is the case with baptism. Baptism is of the heart through the Holy Spirit also. Having been immersed into Him through his Spirit, we are raised with Him to eternal life. That's what this verse is saying. The symbolic ceremonies given to the Jews were a foreshadowing of the fulfillment through Jesus Christ by his Spirit.
| Quote: | and Galatians 3:26-29:
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. |
Again you have water on the brain because the word is untranslated. It specifically says that being immersed into Christ is clothing yourself with Him so that you are now "IN CHRIST JESUS." Being in Him is what saves you and not being immersed in water.
| Quote: | How is someone baptized into Christ? Look at Romans 6:3-7:
3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. |
When you are IN CHRIST JESUS you are immersed into His death and resurrection so that you can live through Him. This is the gospel of substitutiary atonement, and has nothing to do with water. Again you have water on the brain because the word was intentionally untranslated to confuse you. This word is Greek and you better learn what it means if you want to understand the Gospel.
| Quote: | | Do some research about the early Church and what they believed and practiced. |
I believe the Bible over the precepts of men. You are falling into the error of the Pharisees for which Jesus rebuked them.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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delanoyz
Tadpole
Joined: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 20
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
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So, let me ask you something...Is your issue with baptism being done with water? What if you found out that that's actually what the Bible was saying, how would that change your stance? See, I've already shown you from the Bible how baptism after Jesus death, burial, and resurrection (which is very different than John the Baptist's baptism) was done with water. However, you are still choosing to believe that baptism doesn't mean with water. Why is that? You said:
| Quote: | | I believe the Bible over the precepts of men. You are falling into the error of the Pharisees for which Jesus rebuked them. |
But yet you are holding onto "baptismal regeneration" as your defense, which is a man-made concept. Who is following tradition? My point in bring up the early Church history is to see how over time people have changed the meaning of things. If you want to know the truth about something, you have to go to the source and the further away from it you get, the more you lose it's true meaning. I would really encourage you to consider where your belief that baptism is not done in water comes from. Is it a reaction to something you've read or is it based on what the Bible says? The awesome thing about the Bible is that it has a way of explaining itself, so show me with scriptures how baptism is not in water. |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| delanoyz wrote: | | So, let me ask you something...Is your issue with baptism being done with water? |
It really doesn't matter if people immerse themselves in water or not. Everyone who takes a bath or goes swimming "baptizes" themselves in water. The point is that John the baptist did this as a ceremony to prepare the way for the real baptism to come which is of the Spirit. You can immerse yourself in water as much as you like, it really doesn't matter to me, but when you tell people that this somehow saves them from the lake of fire I must correct you because that is false.
| Quote: | | What if you found out that that's actually what the Bible was saying, how would that change your stance? |
The Bible does speak of a ceremony involving immersion in water. I never disputed that. Like all of the ceremonies it was designed to represent a greater truth fulfilled by Christ. Once the real baptism into Christ through the baptism with the Holy Spirit took effect, the old ceremony representing it became irrelevant:
Matthew 3:11 " As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Luke 3:16 John answered and said to them all, "As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Acts 11:15-16 " And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
| Quote: | | See, I've already shown you from the Bible how baptism after Jesus death, burial, and resurrection (which is very different than John the Baptist's baptism) was done with water. |
This was the same ceremony practiced by John, and the apostles only continued it initially until they realized themselves that the true immersion into Christ was being fulfilled through immersion with His Spirit:
Acts 11:15-18 " And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?" When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life. "
Acts 19:1-6 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, " No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them , and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17 Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, that no man should say you were baptized in my name. Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other. For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel , not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void.
In the first passage Peter was surprised when these Gentiles were immersed with the Holy Spirit, and he just then remembered the words of the Lord for the first time, that the real baptism was of the Spirit and not water. This revelation did not occur to him until Acts 11. These men he was speaking to had not even thought about getting immersed in water at that point, yet they were already immersed with the holy Spirit through Peter immersing them in the name of Christ.
Paul also met people who were water baptized, yet they had never heard of the Holy Spirit. The water ceremony had done nothing for them. That's why Paul says he was glad he didn't baptize many people, because he realized that people are saved through preaching of the Gospel and not symbolic ceremonies.
| Quote: | | However, you are still choosing to believe that baptism doesn't mean with water. Why is that? |
Because the word "baptizo" doesn't mean immersion in water. It means something immersed in something else. It could be water if the context dictates water, but often the context specifically says something else.
| Quote: | You said:
| Quote: | | I believe the Bible over the precepts of men. You are falling into the error of the Pharisees for which Jesus rebuked them. |
But yet you are holding onto "baptismal regeneration" as your defense, which is a man-made concept. Who is following tradition? My point in bring up the early Church history is to see how over time people have changed the meaning of things. If you want to know the truth about something, you have to go to the source and the further away from it you get, the more you lose it's true meaning. |
That is simply not true. The only Church fathers that matter are the ones who God inspired to write the Bible. The apostles Paul, Peter, and John all spoke of many false teachers in their day before the books of the Bible had been completed. Most of the false doctrines plaguing us today were founded in the first few centuries, and can be found throughout the writings of the men that I often hear referred to as the "church fathers." Deceivers have always existed and always will, so I don't follow the opinions of any men from any age.
| Quote: | | I would really encourage you to consider where your belief that baptism is not done in water comes from. Is it a reaction to something you've read or is it based on what the Bible says? The awesome thing about the Bible is that it has a way of explaining itself, so show me with scriptures how baptism is not in water. |
I have. Scripture says over and over again that water baptism would be done away when Christ fulfills the real immersion which is with the Holy Spirit and fire. Salvation is by being "IN Christ Jesus" and not in water. As with every symbolic ceremony in scripture, the immersion in water was simply to foreshadow a greater truth to come. When you focus on the symbol itself, you miss the entire point of what it symbolizes.
As I have said many times, you must understand what "baptizo" means if you are going to understand the scriptures that use it. The word preexisted Christianity by hundreds of years, and does not necessarily refer to water or religious ceremonies. It was commonly used in much of classic Greek literature before the Bible was written. It can refer to water if the context specifically says so, but if it doesn't have water specifically in the context it is likely speaking of another immersion entirely.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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