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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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 Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: The Universe is getting older-er-er-er-er-er |
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I ran across this yesterday.
I wonder how all of that dogma asserting the universe was 14.8 billion years old... or was it 15.2... perhaps 18... hmmm... I think it depends on the day of the week... anyway, I wonder how it will impact all of the other calculations that were soooooo certain before.
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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THE RESULTS OF CALCULATIONS CHANGE WHEN YOU CHANGE THE VALUE OF VARIABLES!
NEWS AT ELEVEN!
Last edited by FFT on Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Haha..
I always ask the same question:
Does anybody really know what time it is??
LOL
God Bless
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | THE RESULTS OF CALCULATIONS CHANGE WHEN YOU CHANGE THE VALUE OF VARIABLES!
NEWS AT ELEVEN! |
Newsfalsh 11:01 - the results of the absolute calculations have changed again due to new variables... stay tuned at 11:05 for additional updates and changes! 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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I'm sorry, where does it claim an "absolute" calculation?
I must have missed it. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 6:56 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | I'm sorry, where does it claim an "absolute" calculation?
I must have missed it. |
You may very well have ‘missed it’... but kids in our schools don't. When an adult, a teacher (person of authority), and a teacher of science says "The universe is 14 billion years old"... (or, in this case 15.8) a child, when they form their world views, thinks the universe is 14 billion years old.
So, when teaching this philosophy, the word 'absolute' absolutely applies.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | You may very well have ‘missed it’... but kids in our schools don't. When an adult, a teacher (person of authority), and a teacher of science says "The universe is 14 billion years old"... (or, in this case 15.8) a child, when they form their world views, thinks the universe is 14 billion years old. |
Sorry, but I always heard it as "current calculations put the universe at X billion years old." If your teachers told you otherwise, you should take it up with them. I never came away with the idea that we know exactly how old the universe is.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | So, when teaching this philosophy, the word 'absolute' absolutely applies. |
Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Go ask a science teacher how they're explaining the age of the universe.
I dare you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8239
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: Re: The Universe is getting older-er-er-er-er-er |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | I ran across this yesterday.
I wonder how all of that dogma asserting the universe was 14.8 billion years old... or was it 15.2... perhaps 18... hmmm... I think it depends on the day of the week... anyway, I wonder how it will impact all of the other calculations that were soooooo certain before. |
I don't see the problem. Just because people aren't EXACTLY sure how old the universe is does NOT mean that they are TOTALLY wrong.
Or put more logically: just because people can't make fine distinctions does NOT imply that they can't make coarse distinctions. To think otherwise is a fallacy.
The accepted age of the universe may be off by a couple of billion years, but big deal; they're certainly in the right ball park.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: The Universe is getting older-er-er-er-er-er |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | I wonder how all of that dogma asserting the universe was 14.8 billion years old... or was it 15.2... perhaps 18... hmmm... I think it depends on the day of the week... anyway, I wonder how it will impact all of the other calculations that were soooooo certain before. |
I don't see the problem. Just because people aren't EXACTLY sure how old the universe is does NOT mean that they are TOTALLY wrong.
Or put more logically: just because people can't make fine distinctions does NOT imply that they can't make coarse distinctions. To think otherwise is a fallacy. |
But P... that is not the way it is presented in our schools. Without a competing theory... or more importantly, any criticism of the 'accepted theory' is automatically considered religious in nature... therefore 'unconstitutional' whether one is able to make any distinction is irrelevant. If they are not 'EXACTLY SURE' then the information presented should be presented with said disclaimer. That is the point here. What is purpose of teaching billions of years in the first place then?
| Quote: | | The accepted age of the universe may be off by a couple of billion years, but big deal; they're certainly in the right ball park. |
Curious... when you say accepted you are referring too... those who have genuine criticisms and problems with this even being in the 'ball park' based on observational evidence? Those who have provided some pretty cogent and well thought out alternatives? Or, those who have been taught one thing and one thing only over the course of their academic lifetime?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | You may very well have ‘missed it’... but kids in our schools don't. When an adult, a teacher (person of authority), and a teacher of science says "The universe is 14 billion years old"... (or, in this case 15.8) a child, when they form their world views, thinks the universe is 14 billion years old. |
Sorry, but I always heard it as "current calculations put the universe at X billion years old." If your teachers told you otherwise, you should take it up with them. I never came away with the idea that we know exactly how old the universe is. |
Perhaps I should... but if you read the above post you will see what happens when criticism is not allowed... or presented.
| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | So, when teaching this philosophy, the word 'absolute' absolutely applies. |
Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Go ask a science teacher how they're explaining the age of the universe. |
Don't need to ask... I personally experienced what is being taught when I was in school... and what my kids were being taught. Perhaps you should work a little harder at ensuring that this doesn't happen then criticizing those to whom it does? All that has to happen is for NCSE and ALCU to allow criticism of their precious theory and creationists would pretty much be silenced. When you compel my children to attend school, then prohibit the entertainment of criticism, you create a 'Soviet' like environment of indoctrination.
When school boards are more fearful of litigation then they are of providing a truly liberal education... then there is a problem. I am really not surprised you don't see this... but when it is demonstrated to oyu... I find it surprising that you are unable to even partially agree.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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admin
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Joined: 28 Sep 2000
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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With biblical inerrancy, if one part is wrong, the whole is wrong.
Science doesn't work that way. What is inferred to me with this thread, if that if one calculation is in error, then the whole must be suspect.
Non sequitur.
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | With biblical inerrancy, if one part is wrong, the whole is wrong.
Science doesn't work that way. What is inferred to me with this thread, if that if one calculation is in error, then the whole must be suspect.
Non sequitur. |
I'm not saying that at all. Just because one part is questionable does not necessarily mean the whole is... I understand that and apologize if you got that impression... but I don't believe I inferred that... or have made mention of it in the past.
It does bring into question though, eons of time... which is a requisite part of ToE. With out billions and millions of years, these macro-evolutionary changes that are so often cited as occurring over those periods... are therefore incapable of occurring over short periods... is thrown into suspect also.
I do think you understand the implications here and what a blow to ToE it would be.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Without a competing theory... or more importantly, any criticism of the 'accepted theory' is automatically considered religious in nature... |
Are there any criticisms of evolution which aren't religiously motivated?
Yes, there are debates on evolution within the scientific community. No, they do not debate whether it occurred, they debate details.
Imagine a house.
Creationists are arguing that the foundation is unsound because they have preheld notions that it must be unsound (they've got this other type of foundation which is the only way a foundation can be sound, of course).
Scientists are arguing about which curtains should be hanging.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | If they are not 'EXACTLY SURE' then the information presented should be presented with said disclaimer. |
And it is. Look at a science textbook. When talking about the origin of the universe, it points out that the dates given are based on calculations derived from currently known values. Or at the very least it should. My textbooks did.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | That is the point here. What is purpose of teaching billions of years in the first place then? |
Because that is what the evidence shows. Follow the evidence where it leads regardless of previously held notions, remember? That "science" thing?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | those who have genuine criticisms |
Genuine criticisms? Where?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Perhaps I should... but if you read the above post you will see what happens when criticism is not allowed... or presented. |
Circular. Criticism is allowed. Criticism with religious motivation is scientifically flawed and usually only has the barest grasp on the essentials behind the science to begin with.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Don't need to ask... I personally experienced what is being taught when I was in school... and what my kids were being taught. |
Look at the textbooks. Since when were teachers perfect?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Perhaps you should work a little harder at ensuring that this doesn't happen then criticizing those to whom it does? |
Not my fight.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | All that has to happen is for NCSE and ALCU to allow criticism of their precious theory and creationists would pretty much be silenced. |
 NCSE aside, the ACLU is perfectly willing to defend creationists when their civil liberties are being threatened. I love how the religious criticize the ACLU when the ACLU is perfectly willing to defend anyone whose civil liberties are being threatened. Hell, they offered to defend Fred Freaking Phelps.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | When you compel my children to attend school, then prohibit the entertainment of criticism, you create a 'Soviet' like environment of indoctrination. |
Children are not required to attend public schools. They are required to attend school, but you get to choose which school.
Children don't get to entertain criticism in most History classes, either. It depends on the teacher. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8239
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Universe is getting older-er-er-er-er-er |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | I wonder how all of that dogma asserting the universe was 14.8 billion years old... or was it 15.2... perhaps 18... hmmm... I think it depends on the day of the week... anyway, I wonder how it will impact all of the other calculations that were soooooo certain before. |
I don't see the problem. Just because people aren't EXACTLY sure how old the universe is does NOT mean that they are TOTALLY wrong.
Or put more logically: just because people can't make fine distinctions does NOT imply that they can't make coarse distinctions. To think otherwise is a fallacy. |
But P... that is not the way it is presented in our schools. Without a competing theory... or more importantly, any criticism of the 'accepted theory' is automatically considered religious in nature... therefore 'unconstitutional' whether one is able to make any distinction is irrelevant. If they are not 'EXACTLY SURE' then the information presented should be presented with said disclaimer. That is the point here. What is purpose of teaching billions of years in the first place then?
| Quote: | | The accepted age of the universe may be off by a couple of billion years, but big deal; they're certainly in the right ball park. |
Curious... when you say accepted you are referring too... those who have genuine criticisms and problems with this even being in the 'ball park' based on observational evidence? Those who have provided some pretty cogent and well thought out alternatives? Or, those who have been taught one thing and one thing only over the course of their academic lifetime? |
Again, I don't see any problem. When people are taught how old the universe is in a science class, the teacher / professor doesn't stand up there and say, "We know for a fact that the universe is EXACTLY 14.7 billion years old." They say something more along the lines of, "We know for a fact that the universe is many billions of years old. The currently accepted figure is about 15 billion years."
And yes, we do KNOW FOR A FACT that it is many billions of years old. How? There are many orthogonal corroborating ways, but perhaps the simplest is that there are galaxies many billions of light years away whose light has reached us.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2006 3:33 am Post subject: Re: The Universe is getting older-er-er-er-er-er |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Again, I don't see any problem. When people are taught how old the universe is in a science class, the teacher / professor doesn't stand up there and say, "We know for a fact that the universe is EXACTLY 14.7 billion years old." They say something more along the lines of, "We know for a fact that the universe is many billions of years old. The currently accepted figure is about 15 billion years." |
I think we have discussed this before P...
| Quote: | | And yes, we do KNOW FOR A FACT that it is many billions of years old. How? There are many orthogonal corroborating ways, but perhaps the simplest is that there are galaxies many billions of light years away whose light has reached us. |
Billions of light years.... meaning the light we are seeing right is billions of years old.... yes?
I remember that yes.... we have had this conversation before. When observing these galaxies, we measured their distance using what methodology again? Inference? Actual geometry? Ran a yard stick billions of light years out?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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