 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| admin wrote: | | Just a side note you might find interesting: The fight against evolution is only a big issue in America......something to think about. |
True enough. It might explain why we are the world leader in education also... something to think about. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| joman wrote: | | Quote: | | “We have explicitly stated that the standards must be based on scientific evidence,” Dr. Abrams said, “what is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable and falsifiable.” |
Macro-evolution is not
observable:It takes to long for it to be observed.
measurable:No measurement tools yet available.
testable: The changes occur to slowly to allow testing within anyone's lifetime.
repeatable: The randomness of mutation prevents predictablility.
falsifiable:No direct way to falsify.
Therefore, evo it isn't scientific and is instead the dogma of a irrational philosophy.
Joman. |
Absolutely priceless Jo!!!
Well said. I would award you a 'gold star' for this, but Admin and Nobby removed that function from my USERID and I'm left with nothing more than... boring 'atta-boys'. 
Well said though. Especially it not being falsifiable. I'm wondering, what type of evidence would be necessary to falsify ToE? Any ideas?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: BC
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
So Trinity, joman, etc., would you say that creationism is any of these: observable, measurable, testable, repeatable or falsifiable? How then is creationism in any way viable as a 'competing theory' for evolution?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Ana wrote: | | So Trinity, joman, etc., would you say that creationism is any of these: observable, measurable, testable, repeatable or falsifiable? How then is creationism in any way viable as a 'competing theory' for evolution? |
I would say special creation is not observable... or falsifiable... as there was only a one time event.
Measurable - sure. Look at the complexity in living organisms. If one is not overwhelmed at the amount of information there, then I would venture to say they have their head stuck in the sand.
Testable - if we were to test it we would then have to develop test trying to determine how 'information' originated and can, through a series of mutational mistakes, increase in complexity by orders of magnitude. Again, head stuck in sand as this just doesn't happen.
Repeatable - well, this may or may not fall under the lines of observable. However, every single attempt to create life from non-living material has ended in absolute unequivocal failure. With that said, when looking at it from creationist's perspective, dogs produce dogs, cats begat cats, elephants produce rhinos... erm... elephants.
It is in essence no more observable or falsifiable than the competing theory of ToE and therefore should be allowed to be at least a consideration within the classroom. Keep in mind… an intelligent cause does not have to be God, a god, or deity (which seems to be what the entire hubbub is about). It only needs to be a consideration for a process that we have no earthly idea occurred.
If this is allowed, then the natural progression and acceptance (and organizations such as NCSE and the ACLU know this) of an intelligent designer (God, god , or deity) will or can develop a process within scientific methodology which may lead to a method (a material method mind you) in which we can determine how to detect His/Her/Its existence. And that, Ms Ana, is an anathema to said organizations.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | True enough. It might explain why we are the world leader in education also... something to think about. |
What in the world makes you think we're the world leader in education? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | True enough. It might explain why we are the world leader in education also... something to think about. |
What in the world makes you think we're the world leader in education? |
Perhaps the number of immigrants from other countries coming here to get their education as opposed to going to their own 'esteemed institutions' for starters.
Maybe it’s the amount of research and development of new technologies done here.
Perhaps the fact that we suffer from one of the highest per capita literacy rates in the world.
I don't know... things like that maybe.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
|
|
I found this quote interesting:
| Quote: |
“We have explicitly stated that the standards must be based on scientific evidence,” Dr. Abrams said, “what is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable and falsifiable.” |
According to that standard, they wouldn't be able to teach creation OR evolution.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Perhaps the number of immigrants from other countries coming here to get their education as opposed to going to their own 'esteemed institutions' for starters. |
Argumentum ad populum. Are they necessarily a good judge of what country is the world leader in education, or are they simply moving to a country with better education than their own?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Maybe it’s the amount of research and development of new technologies done here. |
And this correlates to education how?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Perhaps the fact that we suffer from one of the highest per capita literacy rates in the world. |
Is literacy the only way we can judge which country leads the world in literacy? Because we're tied for first with Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerlan and the United Kingdom.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | I don't know... things like that maybe. |
Things which don't really measure if we're the world leader in education? Despite statistics which point out that we're falling disastrously behind? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: BC
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Keep in mind… an intelligent cause does not have to be God, a god, or deity (which seems to be what the entire hubbub is about). It only needs to be a consideration for a process that we have no earthly idea occurred. |
Intelligent Design is an awfully thin layer of gauze creationism is hiding behind. Sure, it has a minute amount of substance to it, but everyone can still see right through it.
As for the world leader in education, Wikipedia has a list of literacy levels, by country. United States is part of a 21-way tie, and there's an interesting footnote:
| The footnote wrote: | | ↑ According to the CIA World Factbook, literacy rate in USA is 99% (cia.gov). In 1992 the USA conducted a big National Adult Literacy Survey. According to the National Institute of Literacy between 21 and 23 percent of the adult population, or approximately 44 million people scored in Level 1 which means that they "can read a little but not well enough to fill out an application, read a food label, or read a simple story to a child". |
This is quite an interesting article as well.
Now, I know literacy rates aren't the be-all, end-all measure of education, but if people can't read, how can they be considered educated?
Additionally (tongue-in-cheek), "no child left behind"?
Also (more of an aside, really), according to the CIA World Factbook, USA is the "world's largest consumer of cocaine." How smart can you be?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: BC
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | I found this quote interesting:
| Quote: |
“We have explicitly stated that the standards must be based on scientific evidence,” Dr. Abrams said, “what is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable and falsifiable.” |
According to that standard, they wouldn't be able to teach creation OR evolution. |
That quote is a favourite among all kinds of Christian as well as IDist circles. Unfortunately, it's a misrepresentation of science.
It isn't that the theories themselves must be all five of those things. The evidence must be observable and measurable, theories must be testable, and experiments must be repeatable, and falsifiable. See the division?
Read this.
Application to the theory of evolution:
evidence = visible, tangible, not invisble, ethereal, can be measured by age, size, etc
theory = testable
experiments = repeatable (instructions for replication can be followed, think fruit flies, viruses, bacteria), falsifiable
Compare to ID:
evidence = none
theory= testable, but the designer, if existing, doesn't respond
experiments = ???
Which one can you do in a science classroom? What experiments can you design for a unit on ID? Evolution? What evidence can you look at for each?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Perhaps the number of immigrants from other countries coming here to get their education as opposed to going to their own 'esteemed institutions' for starters. |
Argumentum ad populum. |
Would you stop with the 'French' already!
| Quote: | | Are they necessarily a good judge of what country is the world leader in education, or are they simply moving to a country with better education than their own? |
Well... if that is the case, we have students from virtually every country in the world attending our universities... so... yea. I reckeon so.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Maybe it’s the amount of research and development of new technologies done here. |
And this correlates to education how? |
the majority of these technologies are developed in our colleges and universities... looks to me like a pretty close correlation.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Perhaps the fact that we suffer from one of the highest per capita literacy rates in the world. |
Is literacy the only way we can judge which country leads the world in literacy? Because we're tied for first with Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Georgia, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Japan, Luxembourg, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerlan and the United Kingdom. |
Actually... if memory serves me correctly here, it is them kids from Finland that read at the highest level. Seems that they get a lot of American TV up there in that frozen tundra, don't understand a lick of it, and then have to be able to read and comprehend the sub-titles pretty good in order to have a clue to know what the show their watching is about.
Anyway, still, being the top 10% of the world... even if it is a tie for first.... is about the right place to be. Better than being behind the French anyway.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | I don't know... things like that maybe. |
Things which don't really measure if we're the world leader in education? Despite statistics which point out that we're falling disastrously behind. |
And why would we be falling behind? A lack of funding? A lack of parental involvement? Perhaps a lack of parental involvement because they have absolutely no say so anymore (thanks to the ilks of the NCSE and ACLU) what their children are being taught? I suppose we could draw correlations all over the place here.
The fact is though, we have one of the best systems in the world (if not the best) for education. Does it have problems... sure... but we are the envy of the world.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Well... if that is the case, we have students from virtually every country in the world attending our universities... so... yea. I reckeon so. |
There are plenty of American students who take classes in other countries. Your example is invalid.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | the majority of these technologies are developed in our colleges and universities... looks to me like a pretty close correlation. |
So, because of our progress in our higher learning institutions, our educational system as a whole leads the world?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | The fact is though, we have one of the best systems in the world (if not the best) for education. Does it have problems... sure... but we are the envy of the world. |
I don't know where you're getting your facts (or if you're researching them at all in the first place), but you're wrong.
Problems with education
Problems with the No Child Left Behind Act
The problem with our children's education is not just HAHA SECULARISTS NOT HAPPY BECAUSE THE CHILRDRENS ARENT GETTING INDOCTRINATED! We're falling behind in math and engineering as well.
All you have to do is look v v |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8239
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I had a great new idea today:
I think that it would be fine to inlude some kind of disclaimer in all high-school biology text books in the country, something along the lines of,
"Evolution is only a theory. It is not accepted by all scientists."
But in fairness, I think that a disclaimer should also be included in the front of every single Bible in the country:
"There is no physical evidence supporting the existence of God, and He might in fact not exist."
That's a fair compromise, isn't it?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Also, on the door of every doctor's office:
"The Germ Theory of Disease is only a theory. It is not accepted by all scientists" (I'm sure there's a geologist or something that goes with the DEMONS approach).
And on the door to every basketball court:
"The Theory of Gravity is only a theory. It is not accepted by all scientists." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | I had a great new idea today:
I think that it would be fine to inlude some kind of disclaimer in all high-school biology text books in the country, something along the lines of,
"Evolution is only a theory. It is not accepted by all scientists."
But in fairness, I think that a disclaimer should also be included in the front of every single Bible in the country:
"There is no physical evidence supporting the existence of God, and He might in fact not exist."
That's a fair compromise, isn't it? |
Sure... if you were to compell everyone in the country to read, study, and memorize the Bible. No problem.
Also, with the biology books 'only a theory' more or less elevates ToE with the 'theory of flight', 'atomic theory', et. al. Something along the lines stating that 'the progressions shown using ToE are drawn from the fossil record which is dated using an unreliable dating method, extropolating unproven results'.
That would do it me thinks.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
