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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8243
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: Black eye to science in America |
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I can't believe that in this day and age in the most scientifically advanced country on Earth, things could possibly have come to this point:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/us/01evolution.html?ex=1155096000&en=3eb3c1f34beff0e2&ei=5070&emc=eta1
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Black eye to science in America |
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IF the public school system would not dogmatically teach ToE (meaning purely materialistic causes for origins... all origins... not just biological...) as fact (having first hand knowledge that it does) then perhaps there would not be so much hubba about this issue. When you have the NCSE and the ACLU fighting to keep a sticker off of textbooks in Florida... and allowing other states that leave open the possibility for special creation... then you are going to get this... After all... if you are making education compulsory and force feeding these people's children a steady diet of secular humanism... people are going to fight back.
Contrary to your opinion, I would be disappointed not to see something like this. My understanding of leftist thought here is that dissent is always good... even if they are wrong... it is always good to here differing points of view. I guess what is good for the goose ain't good for the gander in this case, huh? 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Kansas isn't really a shining beacon of scientifically advanced society, but the anti-evolution board got voted out again:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801/ap_on_el_st_lo/kansas_evolution
| Trinity1 wrote: | | After all... if you are making education compulsory and force feeding these people's children a steady diet of secular humanism... |
What is it with people and secular humanism? Do you even understand what is meant by secular humanism? Are you going to insist that European governments are mostly secular humanist too?
Secular humanism and evolution are not mutually inclusive. I, for instance, believe the theory of evolution explains our origins. I am not a secular humanist.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Contrary to your opinion, I would be disappointed not to see something like this. My understanding of leftist thought here is that dissent is always good... even if they are wrong... it is always good to here differing points of view. |
And this.
It is not dissent, it's creationist propaganda. If there were legitimate scientific arguments against evolution, I would be perfectly happy with them being taught. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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And of course this is your opinion... and nothing more.
For instance... this is what is being asked of this 'movement' according to your cited article:
| Quote: | | "Students need to have an accurate assessment of the state of the facts in regard to Darwin's theory," said John West, a vice president for the Center for Science and Culture at the Seattle-based, anti-evolution Discovery Institute. |
I suppose and honest or critical assessment of the facts aren't a very good idea... or perhaps stressing the weaknesses of ToE causing people to doubt it won't work either. This pretty much illuminates my opinion of it being an indoctrination pogrom.
Another point here... notice how the article describes the Discovery Institute (which I'm really not a big fan of, but...) "Anti-Evolution". But, when describing Eugenie and here 250 square foot National Center for Science Education... it only mentions that her organization (not anti-creationist organization) only supports the teaching of evolution. No mention of the countless lawsuits and threatened lawsuits her esteemed organization has aimed at public school districts for ANY criticism of ToE... regardless of how small.
Nice article FFT.... 
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Contrary to your opinion, I would be disappointed not to see something like this. My understanding of leftist thought here is that dissent is always good... even if they are wrong... it is always good to here differing points of view. |
And this.
It is not dissent, it's creationist propaganda. If there were legitimate scientific arguments against evolution, I would be perfectly happy with them being taught. |
Of course it is propaganda... And teaching purely materialistic origins (spontaneous generation of matter/abiogenesis/ascent with modification) is not. That is all science. I hear you... I hear you. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | And of course this is your opinion... and nothing more. |
What's "only my opinion"? That Kansas isn't a shining beacon of a scientifically advanced society?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | For instance... this is what is being asked of this 'movement' according to your cited article: |
And it's a lie. Congratulations, you're gullible! |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | And of course this is your opinion... and nothing more. |
What's "only my opinion"? That Kansas isn't a shining beacon of a scientifically advanced society? |
Yes. From what I am gleening from your statement and this article is that you feel Kansasan's are unable to discern fact from supposition.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | For instance... this is what is being asked of this 'movement' according to your cited article: |
And it's a lie. |
What is a lie... DI wanting to expose the finer details and criticisms of ToE?
| Quote: | | Congratulations, you're gullible! |
I've been accused of worst. but thanks for voicing your opinion. I'll take it under consideration... and try to work on it. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Yes. From what I am gleening from your statement and this article is that you feel Kansasan's are unable to discern fact from supposition. |
I'm sorry, is Kansas a shining beacon of a scientifically advanced society? I said nothing about Kansasans.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | What is a lie... DI wanting to expose the finer details and criticisms of ToE? |
That this is their intent:
"Students need to have an accurate assessment of the state of the facts in regard to Darwin's theory"
is a lie.
That students need to have "an accurate assessment of the state of the facts in regard to Darwin's theory" is true. That this is the intent of the DI is a lie.
Is this clear? |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Yes. From what I am gleening from your statement and this article is that you feel Kansasan's are unable to discern fact from supposition. |
I'm sorry, is Kansas a shining beacon of a scientifically advanced society? I said nothing about Kansasans. |
Oooh... word play. -K-, tell me... who lives in Kanasa then making up Kansas not being a beacon? Iowan's? Nebraskan's? Tim-buck-too-an's?
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | What is a lie... DI wanting to expose the finer details and criticisms of ToE? |
That this is their intent:
"Students need to have an accurate assessment of the state of the facts in regard to Darwin's theory"
is a lie.
That students need to have "an accurate assessment of the state of the facts in regard to Darwin's theory" is true. That this is the intent of the DI is a lie.
Is this clear? |
No... not really. Are you saying that DI doesn't want Kansasan's to have an accurate assesment of the teachings of ToE or the facts surrounding it? If this is the case... where are you getting your information?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Oooh... word play. -K-, tell me... who lives in Kanasa then making up Kansas not being a beacon? Iowan's? Nebraskan's? Tim-buck-too-an's? |
I'll repeat: "is Kansas a shining beacon of a scientifically advanced society?" Because the evidence says that they're doing their damnedest to reject the scientific method entirely. Is this an example of a scientifically advanced society?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | No... not really. Are you saying that DI doesn't want Kansasan's to have an accurate assesment of the teachings of ToE or the facts surrounding it? |
No. I'm saying that this is not their intent. Yes, they want to "reveal" what they believe to be an accurate assessment ToE, but they are not doing this for its own merit.
What they want is for Kansasans to reject evolution. They do this by grossly stretching the evidence. They do this by recycling creationist literature (Of Pandas and People is an older creationist text revised to support ID. There are, in fact, examples where sections remained as they were verbatim, with references to God changed to "intelligent designer") and creationist arguments. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1804
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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FFT - I think you're getting trolled.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8243
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Of course it is propaganda... And teaching purely materialistic origins (spontaneous generation of matter/abiogenesis/ascent with modification) is not. That is all science. I hear you... I hear you. |
You're putting a whole bunch of things together in one pot, so let's look at them separately:
1. The Big Bang is scientific fact. It has very good and very strong scientific evidence backing it up. It is DEFINITELY an example of science and scientific reasoning.
2. Macroevolution is also scientific fact with very good and very strong evidence backing it up. It is DEFINITELY an example of scientific reasoning.
3. Abiogenesis is the weakest of the three, but it is still definitely good science in that it's the best working hypothesis that we've got. If and when some better evidence pops up, the theory will be revised. Note that there is exactly zero evidence supporting the competing theory of an intelligent designer. In that sense, abiogenesis is clearly the superior SCIENTIFIC theory, since it at least falls inside the realm of matter and reality as we understand it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1804
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject: |
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Just a side note you might find interesting: The fight against evolution is only a big issue in America......something to think about.
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | “We have explicitly stated that the standards must be based on scientific evidence,” Dr. Abrams said, “what is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable and falsifiable.” |
Macro-evolution is not
observable:It takes to long for it to be observed.
measurable:No measurement tools yet available.
testable: The changes occur to slowly to allow testing within anyone's lifetime.
repeatable: The randomness of mutation prevents predictablility.
falsifiable:No direct way to falsify.
Therefore, evo it isn't scientific and is instead the dogma of a irrational philosophy.
Joman. |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 823
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:27 am Post subject: |
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| P1-10 wrote: | | The Big Bang is scientific fact. |
Dogma of evolution.
| P1-10 wrote: | | Macroevolution is also scientific fact |
Dogma of evolution.
| P1-10 wrote: | | Abiogenesis is the weakest of the three |
Facts can't be weak!
Which proves even you don't believe a word you posted claiming factuality for the big bang and macro-evolution.
Thus, your dogmatism is evidenced.
Joman. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | Just a side note you might find interesting: The fight against evolution is only a big issue in America......something to think about. |
It's becoming an issue elsewhere as well.
| joman wrote: | | do de do de do |
Funny how no one ever responded to this thread |
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