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Islam versus Christianity

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Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Islam and the Qu'ran (Koran)

Do you think Islam comes from God?

Yes

17%

[ 3 ]

82%

[ 14 ]

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Message

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:25 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Culture has no influence on religion?

Explain Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, then.

It would help if you tried to follow this discussion more closely.

I cannot, neither is it suitable for me to explain any such issues about Christianity, but Ill do my best.

Firstly, the discussion has sort of turned to focus more on Islam than religion as a whole.

Santa Claus and the Easter bunny? That is an example of 'corrupt' what was once a part of religion, but now has been shrowded with innovations and the like.

Yes culture has 'corrupted' this aspect of Christianity. But what we are discussing here is, does culture affect the foundations and the underlying aspects of religion. Did culture conjure up such innovations when the first stones of Christianity were being laid? Certainly not.

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:42 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

No, I never said anything of the sort. Muslims agree on the major stuff, but there are minor differences from place to place.

Precisely what im saying. The major tenets of Islam do not (or at least shouldnt) change from culture to culture. What i was getting at when you quoted me above, was that despite your culture, you still believe in one God, despite your culture, you still believe in the last Messenger of God, despite your culture, you still believe in all the other Prophets, the Books, the Angels, etc. These thing do not get changed with culture, if they do, that is corruption to the highest degree. In yes such things have happened. For example, certain people claiming Prophethood falsely, some saying that Muhammad (saw) is not the last Prophet, etc. But these are people who have strayed from the religion altogether. Their antics havent influenced Islam, but rather (some for personal goals or due to personal agendas) have twisted the truth.

Quote:

Muslims agree on the major stuff, but there are minor differences from place to place

You've hit the nail on the head there. And these things that differ, are not corruptions of the religion, are not examples of it being twisted and are not culture playin a right hand in it. This is where <the word's gone outta my head, but simply where God has allowed human to use intellect and reasoning to ponder, discuss and research on little issues regarding Islam>. For example, if you'd care to notice, some Muslims pray with their hands below the navel, while others pray with theirs on the chest. It is wrong for a Muslim to say one is wrong and the other is right. These sort of things have been deliberated on in great depth. Allah (swt) says that the one that is right, will gain the reward, but the one who is wrong, while not receive sin, but rather a lesser reward.

P1234567890 wrote:

Tiptronic wrote:

The little details of religion vary from place to place, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN CULTURE HAD AN INFLUENCE IN IT.

These are due to different Muslims following different Imams, some from the Hanafi school, others from the Shaafi, etc. But to say there own culture, the way of life that suited them best, the way they favoured, they liked, influenced their religion, is absurd.

No, it certainly isn't absurd. Look at Catholics in Spain. They perform all sorts of rituals that aren't performed in France, or Italy, or Portugal, or the U.S.A. If Catholic worship can be influenced by cultural differences, then certainly Islam can as well.

You hold me to things on Islam and now Xianity, Im not super-human you know.

Xianity isnt the issue here, Im sure fellow Christian friends here will discuss that with you. But look again at what i have said is absurd, and then look at what you have used to argue that it isnt.

-Tiptronic

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:46 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

I really don't understand why you and Triptonic are so opposed to the idea that culture influences religion, especially when it is so obvious that it's true.

Because thats what it is - an idea, and one you hold.

You havent really given "obvious" arguments to say such a thing is "true".

And it has a certain ring about it to say that Islam is man-made. Something Im obviously not going to accept as truth, and something i assume CBallard is going to either wrt Xianity.

cballard
Grizzly Bear

Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 728

Location: WV

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:33 am Post subject:

Actually, I don't have a dog in this fight. I was simply responding to your apparent argument that there was no semblance of religious unity in Catholicism across the different countries. Sure there are different customs, but we share the same beliefs.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292

Location: Memphis

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

Santa Claus and the Easter bunny? That is an example of 'corrupt' what was once a part of religion, but now has been shrowded with innovations and the like.

Correct.

Tiptronic wrote:

Did culture conjure up such innovations when the first stones of Christianity were being laid? Certainly not.

Ever hear about the differences between the first groups of Christians? They were different because they were from different cultures. The Jewish Christians followed all of the old laws, the Gentile Christians didn't.

Remember, this is what you asked:

Tiptronic wrote:

Firstly, CULTURE doesnt influence RELIGION. Show me how?

Tiptronic wrote:

This is where <the word's gone outta my head, but simply where God has allowed human to use intellect and reasoning to ponder, discuss and research on little issues regarding Islam>.

Personal revelation, maybe? I've forgotten if Islam has room for it.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8238

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

No, I never said anything of the sort. Muslims agree on the major stuff, but there are minor differences from place to place.

It sounds like we agree. I thought you were saying that culture has NO influence on religion.

Incidentally, if we forget about culture for a second, and focus rather on politics, then the issue becomes much more interesting. Seeing as how Islam is notoriously bad at separating church and state, it is hard to imagine that politics hasn't strongly influenced the religion over the centuries.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:57 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Tiptronic wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

No, I never said anything of the sort. Muslims agree on the major stuff, but there are minor differences from place to place.

It sounds like we agree. I thought you were saying that culture has NO influence on religion.

It has minimal; not worth discussing tbh.

Religion can have a massive influence on culture, but culture doesnt have no way near as big an influence on religion. Culture is man-made, religion is Divine. See the problem when culture tries to dictate to religion?

Quote:

Incidentally, if we forget about culture for a second, and focus rather on politics, then the issue becomes much more interesting. Seeing as how Islam is notoriously bad at separating church and state, it is hard to imagine that politics hasn't strongly influenced the religion over the centuries.

"Seeing as how Islam is notoriously bad at separating church and state"

Ill take that as a compliment.

Im not getting you atm...give me some examples please.

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:02 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Tiptronic wrote:

Santa Claus and the Easter bunny? That is an example of 'corrupt' what was once a part of religion, but now has been shrowded with innovations and the like.

Correct.

Tiptronic wrote:

Did culture conjure up such innovations when the first stones of Christianity were being laid? Certainly not.

Tiptronic wrote:

Firstly, CULTURE doesnt influence RELIGION. Show me how?

Like ive said before, i cant comment with such fluency on other religions but Islam. So, that doesnt really hit the nail on the head.

Quote:

Tiptronic wrote:

This is where <the word's gone outta my head, but simply where God has allowed human to use intellect and reasoning to ponder, discuss and research on little issues regarding Islam>.

Personal revelation, maybe? I've forgotten if Islam has room for it.

Actually, I was looking for an Arabic word. Nice try though. Smile

My description should give you a general idea though.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8238

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:02 am Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

Religion can have a massive influence on culture, but culture doesnt have no way near as big an influence on religion. Culture is man-made, religion is Divine. See the problem when culture tries to dictate to religion?

In actual fact, this is wrong; God did not create us, we created Him. In other words, religion is EXACTLY like culture; they are both man-made. But that's a different discussion for a different forum.

Tiptronic wrote:

"Seeing as how Islam is notoriously bad at separating church and state"

Ill take that as a compliment.

Im not getting you atm...give me some examples please.

It is not a compliment; it is a very serious criticism. A separation between church and state is ABSOLUTELY VITAL in order to have a civilized society in which religion is protected.

As for examples, look at pretty much every single Muslim country in the Middle East. I don't think that a single one of them has anything even approaching a proper separation. Iran and Saudi Arabia (and former Taliban Afghanistan) are good examples of the problems that happen without a proper separation.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292

Location: Memphis

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

Like ive said before, i cant comment with such fluency on other religions but Islam. So, that doesnt really hit the nail on the head.

We're basically at an impasse, then, as the only currently-practiced religion I can really comment on with knowledge is Christianity.

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:58 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Tiptronic wrote:

There we go again. Is there any point in discussing the theology of Islam with you, when you continue to dismiss everything with, "But i dont believe in God"?

Quote:

Tiptronic wrote:

"Seeing as how Islam is notoriously bad at separating church and state"

Ill take that as a compliment.

Im not getting you atm...give me some examples please.

We've had this discussion before. And i wanted example of the influences between Islam and Politics.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8238

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:35 am Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

We've had this discussion before. And i wanted example of the influences between Islam and Politics.

There are thousands of examples; just look at pretty much every single Muslim country. Almost all of them have implemented Sharia Law. Law is supposed to be a socio-political mechanism, but in Islamic countries it is a socio-political-theological mechanism, which is a CLEAR violation of the separation between church and state.

Or look at the Ayatollah in Iran. He is a religious leader, but he has IMMENSE political power. This is another CLEAR example of a strong separation violation.

Then look at the way pretty much every Islamic country is a sworn enemy of Israel. Israel is a political entity; it is a country. But for RELIGIOUS reasons, all of the Muslim countries in the Middle East are POLITICALLY hostile towards it. This is another CLEAR example of a separation violation.

I can't believe that you really need examples; Muslim countries are the worst ones on Earth when it comes to violating the separation between church and state. This is one of the major reasons why the Muslim world has slid into such decline over the past 400 years. A country cannot be stable without a separation.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:01 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Tiptronic wrote:

We've had this discussion before. And i wanted example of the influences between Islam and Politics.

Come again?

Quote:

Or look at the Ayatollah in Iran. He is a religious leader, but he has IMMENSE political power. This is another CLEAR example of a strong separation violation.

Then look at the way pretty much every Islamic country is a sworn enemy of Israel. Israel is a political entity; it is a country. But for RELIGIOUS reasons, all of the Muslim countries in the Middle East are POLITICALLY hostile towards it. This is another CLEAR example of a separation violation.

Riiight. For RELIGIOUS reasons all Muslim countries are POLITICALLY hostile towards Israel? Rolling Eyes

You dont seemed to be educated well enough on the issue between Israel and its Arab neighbours in the Middle East.

Quote:

I can't believe that you really need examples; Muslim countries are the worst ones on Earth when it comes to violating the separation between church and state. This is one of the major reasons why the Muslim world has slid into such decline over the past 400 years. A country cannot be stable without a separation.

Cut me this please. You're side-tracking again. And in actual fact, the decline is due to the exact opposite of what your saying. But thats another discussion which you have duefully mixed in with the current one, one for another time.

P wrote:

I want examples that can then be discussed on the highlighted statement please.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:47 am Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

P wrote:

Then look at the way pretty much every Islamic country is a sworn enemy of Israel. Israel is a political entity; it is a country. But for RELIGIOUS reasons, all of the Muslim countries in the Middle East are POLITICALLY hostile towards it. This is another CLEAR example of a separation violation.

Riiight. For RELIGIOUS reasons all Muslim countries are POLITICALLY hostile towards Israel? Rolling Eyes

You dont seemed to be educated well enough on the issue between Israel and its Arab neighbours in the Middle East.

What? Which Islamic countries... or countries where the predominant religion is Islam, is NOT hostile... or is friendly towards Israel? One is all I ask.

Jordan? Egypt? Me thinks not. If there are others I would be really interested in hearing which ones they are. Every country, as a whole, on that peninsula hates Israel... and the sad part about it is, none of them could give two flippen snots about their 'Arab Brothers', the Palestinians, other than it gives them an excuse to hate Israel even more.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8238

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Come again?

Are you denying that Islamic countries practice Sharia law??? They even practice DIFFERENT VERSIONS of Sharia law!

Tiptronic wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Or look at the Ayatollah in Iran. He is a religious leader, but he has IMMENSE political power. This is another CLEAR example of a strong separation violation.

You forgot to tell me how I was wrong about the Ayatollah.

Tiptronic wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Riiight. For RELIGIOUS reasons all Muslim countries are POLITICALLY hostile towards Israel? Rolling Eyes

You dont seemed to be educated well enough on the issue between Israel and its Arab neighbours in the Middle East.

Yes, exactly; the Arabic countries are hostile towards Israel for religious reasons. They constantly cite the way that Israel treated their Muslim Palestinian brothers as justification. In other words, they are mad at "The Zionist Entity" for mistreating MUSLIMS. I don't know about you, but that sounds like a religious reason to me.

Tiptronic wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

P wrote:

I want examples that can then be discussed on the highlighted statement please.

And I gave you excellent examples. I can't believe that you're bothering to argue this!!! This isn't even debatable! Go ask anyone who has taken a first year poli-sci class; Islamic countries are notoriously bad at separating church from state, and it has had incredibly bad repercussions for them.

Incidentally, here's another example: In Iran, children have no choice but to study the Koran in public school; this is a pathetic example compared to the others, but I guess it qualifies.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

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