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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:55 am Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | It's easy to pray quietly to oneself. I do it all the time. But then, I also do it out loud. If it offends someone, too bad. I'm offended all the time, but I don't make a big deal out of it. |
"I like to call black people [n-word]s. I mostly say this quietly to myself, but sometimes I say it out loud. If it offends someone, too bad. I'm offended all the time, but I don't make a big deal out of it."
Sorry, that's not the way societies work successfully.
| Flashman wrote: | | After having re read this, I probably should have pointed out that what "bothered" me about the prayer to Mecca was the sadness I felt for that teacher. |
And that's what's disruptive. You're not okay with freedom of religion, you're convinced that the Muslim must be wrong.
It's better to simply do away with this sort of disruptive prayer entirely during class hours. Why is that a problem?
| Flashman wrote: | | Only the die-hard antireligeous zealouts are still making a bunch of anti-prayer noise about it and they're a small group out of the entire population. |
I have yet to hear anti-prayer noise. All I hear is a bunch of Christians whining about how their rights are being trampled over.
| Flashman wrote: | | Even the Christians who fought to keep prayer in school are strangely quiet these days. They're probably working hard to keep crosses in cemetaries. |
Maybe some have figured out that they don't have a leg to stand on?
| Flashman wrote: | | I disagree. I think it is worth the hassle. There are tons of disruptions in classrooms, all the time. |
Disruptions unrelated to what is supposed to be taught are not worth the hassle.
| Flashman wrote: | | And, for the record, the states already "freely establish laws infringing on freedom of speech, could pass censorship laws, could keep people from peaceably assembling". |
Examples where this has gone over quietly? |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
| Flashman wrote: | | And, for the record, the states already "freely establish laws infringing on freedom of speech, could pass censorship laws, could keep people from peaceably assembling". |
Examples where this has gone over quietly? |
Whatcha mean "gone over quietly?"
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
| P123 wrote: | I think the founding fathers had more on their minds than this. They were pretty bright guys; their motivation couldn't have been so simplistic.
Did your buddy give you any references or quotes from the founding fathers backing this up? |
What more did the founding fathers have on their mind P? I think their main motivation regarding the seperation of church and state was the tendancy of the state to support and promote specific religious views and in so doing generate discrimination, intimidation, and other such atrocities against those not adhering to the states mandates.
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I think that the founding fathers' thinking was considerably more complicated. I'm not going to attempt to capture all of their reasoning, but here are four important points supporting the separation between church and state:
1. A separation between church and state protects the church from being controlled by the state. This ensures that religions don't become polluted by politics. Once politics and power enter religion, it becomes corrupt. Just look at Iran or any country like that.
2. A separation between church and state protects the state from the church. This ensures that the state does not become a theocracy. Just look at Iran and how bad that type of government is. It also ensures that religions never become powerful enough so that they can forcibly convert people and / or take away their personal freedoms.
3. A separation between church and state follows the common theme of separating powers as found in the U.S. constitution. Religious influence is a real force, and therefore MUST be separated from political power. In other words, a separation between church and state furthers the strong system of checks and balances that the U.S. has. The founding fathers were big fans of this kind of thing.
4. A separation between church and state is good for scientific progress, and scientific progress is good for the nation. When there is no separation, then all sorts of topics are considered to be taboo, and scientific research is seriously hurt. This is one of the reasons why Islamic countries fell behind the West.
Being educated people, the founding fathers certainly would have been aware of Galileo's story and how the church has a history of retarding scientific progress. Just look at Bush with his fight against stem cell research, and all of the hard-core fundamentalist groups who don't want evolution taught in schools.
In summary, the separation between church and state is an EXTREMELY GOOD thing for everyone, perhaps most of all people who enjoy going to church.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | Whatcha mean "gone over quietly?" |
That is, gone over without protest that such things are unconstitutional? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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You can't graduate from school without passing science can you?
So Science is a requirement forced on those of faith that may not want to learn science.
I don't like biology, It goes against my beliefs of cutting apart and disecting animals.
Well if you don't pass biology, you'll flunk.
Who's holding what over who's heads?
I dropped out before I had to do that. Well, not by choice but circumstances.
Am I any worse of because I didn't disect a frog in school?
Uggg just the thought of it.
Well if we can do it to a frog......
So what if parents don't want their children being taught science in a school where their taxes pay for their childrens education?
Can we eliminate science in school because it goes against ones beliefs?
The same way religion can be removed from schools because it goes against ones beliefs??
Why shouldn't science go start their own churches?
oh wait..isn't their a church of scientology?
you want to keep it seperate, then by all means lets seperate it totally.
And those who want religion go to religious churches,
And those who want science go to science churches.
So if we deny one we aught to deny both. If we allow one we aught to allow both.
fair is fair.
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8237
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | You can't graduate from school without passing science can you?
So Science is a requirement forced on those of faith that may not want to learn science.
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Not really. Science is a part of a well-rounded education. Science may be forced on people, but so is reading and history. It's all part of a well-rounded education. If you don't want your kids to learn how to read, then tough luck. The same goes for science.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
I don't like biology, It goes against my beliefs of cutting apart and disecting animals.
Well if you don't pass biology, you'll flunk.
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There's a whole lot more to biology than cutting apart animals. I never had to cut apart any animals in high school biology. To the best of my knowledge, no living creature ever had to die needlessly for my education.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Am I any worse of because I didn't disect a frog in school?
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No, but it is too bad that you didn't get to go further. You seem to be pretty bright, and you could have gone far.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Well if we can do it to a frog......
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If you're saying that there's some kind of slippery slope, and next we'll be killing humans just to get specimens, then you're wrong, because there are not only strong laws against that, but there are also strong ethical researh guidelines as well which prohibit that kind of thing.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
So what if parents don't want their children being taught science in a school where their taxes pay for their childrens education?
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Then the parents are doing their children a great disservice. You might as well be asking what if parents don't want their children being taught to read or add in a shool where their taxes pay for their childrens' education.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Can we eliminate science in school because it goes against ones beliefs?
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No, and nor should we even flirt with the idea.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
The same way religion can be removed from schools because it goes against ones beliefs??
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This is a loaded question; religion was not simply removed from schools because it goes against peoples' beliefs. The motivation was far more compliated than that.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Why shouldn't science go start their own churches?
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For the same reason that bakers shouldn't go and start their own cement companies: because one has nothing to do with the other. Science has nothing to do with church, and churches have nothing to do with science.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
oh wait..isn't their a church of scientology?
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Yes, but a) it's the most absurd religion on the planet, and b) it has exactly nothing to do with science.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
you want to keep it seperate, then by all means lets seperate it totally.
And those who want religion go to religious churches,
And those who want science go to science churches.
So if we deny one we aught to deny both. If we allow one we aught to allow both.
fair is fair. |
No, for the simple reason that you would be totally destroying children's futures. If a kid is put into a religious school by his parents, and then later decides that (s)he wants to become an engineer, (s)he would stand exactly zero chance of getting into an engineering program. Now repeat this statement for any job that requires a science background out of high school. You would guarantee that your child could never become a doctor or a pharmacist or a marine biologist, etc., etc.
You'd be slamming shut all sorts of potential future jobs for them, many of which are the higher-paying jobs that are vital for maintaining a healthy middle class.
And then once your middle class slips (like it is currently doing in America), your country is in BIG trouble.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:24 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | Whatcha mean "gone over quietly?" |
That is, gone over without protest that such things are unconstitutional? |
Would that make any difference? Whether it were protested or not, I mean? Most of the infringements (such as "free speech areas") are precisely about protest.
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| There's nothing preventing governments from putting legislation in place which is unconstitutional. It's up to people to take note of it and point it out. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | Why shouldn't science go start their own churches? |
Why should it? If you want to learn about science, there are schools for that sort of thing. Science is not religious, despite what "Christian Science," "Religious Science" and "Scientology" would have you believe. None of those religions are even remotely scientific. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | There's nothing preventing governments from putting legislation in place which is unconstitutional. It's up to people to take note of it and point it out. |
What? The constitution is the governing authority over what they can and cannot do. Your comment should have included the word "'lawfully' ...putting legislation in place...". What you are saying then, is we have a group of despots running our country? Shock   The constitution *is* that prevention. It's really up to the people to rise up and put down such a government.
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | What? The constitution is the governing authority over what they can and cannot do. |
Correct, but this isn't going to stop such things from occurring. It is up to the people to enforce the Constitution.
Laws which were unconstitutional have been instituted in the past, it wasn't until they were made an issue that they were repealed. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | What? The constitution is the governing authority over what they can and cannot do. |
Correct, but this isn't going to stop such things from occurring. It is up to the people to enforce the Constitution.
Laws which were unconstitutional have been instituted in the past, it wasn't until they were made an issue that they were repealed. |
Yeah, I guess we expect too much from congress, huh?
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1509
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:32 am Post subject: |
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Sort of, but Congress are the elected representatives of the people...Democracy is an inefficient form of government, but of all the forms of government, it has the greatest potential to do "good" more consistently...our government in particular because of the inherent system of checks and balances. Does it make is slow and painful sometimes? Absolutely.....important things should never be rushed 
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1804
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | You can't graduate from school without passing science can you? |
I graduated from High School and took three years of college without ever taking science. I was able to substitute physics as a replacement for science, also did not take biology in high school or college.
I can tell you that my education in physics made me educated to see through lies like Astrology - but without a strong science education it made me prey to a whole system of beliefs that has taken me years to unravel. The internet has given me a strong information base to gradually weed through the truth in these areas - namely evolution, psychic phenomena and areas of pseudoscience.
So my stance is keeping people from education simply makes them uneducated. Is keeping people uneducated the only way to propogate a certain belief? That is a sad approach.
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: | | You can't graduate from school without passing science can you? |
I graduated from High School and took three years of college without ever taking science. I was able to substitute physics as a replacement for science, also did not take biology in high school or college.
I can tell you that my education in physics made me educated to see through lies like Astrology - but without a strong science education it made me prey to a whole system of beliefs that has taken me years to unravel. The internet has given me a strong information base to gradually weed through the truth in these areas - namely evolution, psychic phenomena and areas of pseudoscience.
So my stance is keeping people from education simply makes them uneducated. Is keeping people uneducated the only way to propogate a certain belief? That is a sad approach. |
Hi Admin,
I don't disagree with what your saying.
But the same would apply to ethics and moral issues wouldn't it?
I mean if we can teach science why can't we teach morals?
I've never seen a class on morality or ethics when I was in school.
(lots of years ago now, but they don't have classes on those in middle school do they?
Well, I guess, everything we ever needed to know we learned in kindergaten, will just have to get us through.
and I'm not asking about particular denominations of religions, but the basics..kinda sorta like the one we're I studying about.
ethics I guess.
I know you can take ethics in college..??
But not in grade school...?
I question because I haven't been there for years, and my daughter graduated quite a few years ago.
There's a lot of different science classes, and there's a lot of different religions. Why can't we learn about both?
Why does it have to be either/or?
I think Morals and ethics are just as important as technology and science.
God Bless
Lone
I know religion and ethics aren't the same things...well I don't know, maybe they are?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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