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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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Amen, Rev!
I've already been in this pot, so I'm just lurking. But, glad to see that you're on top of it.
And...Hey, 10th. I think you are right on track, as I said before. People who ignore the facts of our history, try to impose secular ideas on a largely Christian nation...and then say how democratic our country is; really jerks a knot in my tail.
Ana went so far as to say we are "free to start our own school". Before the government unconstitutionally started an educational "system" in our country, God was the one who made the 7th grader blush at the thought of looking at a little girl's ankle in class. We, as a class of people, already had our own school before the government (via the weakness of the majority of the people) decided to standardize educational processes. So, I guess the secular humanists and atheists should have started their own school...oops, I guess they did. 
If 51% of the voters decided that atheism was a capital offense, then I guess there'd be a lot of the minority scared to death. And probably a lot less vocal, since they could really have a bad weekend if they were discovered.
There was "separation of church and state" because the citizenry was down-homey enough not to demand the government get involved. Then came a very liberal (progressive) bunch of representatives who realized the value of a vote over the value of virtue. Problem was, all the Christians were spineless or stupid. I don't know which. "The meek shall inherit the earth" was the only thing the "progressives" could count on to gather boldness.
Today, these down-homey people are backward, repressive, tyrannical, despots; according to those who do not have a microscopic clue as to what the difference between Godly-thought and a science curriculum should consist of. The idea that any government body should dictate what a person should *know* is tatamount to tyranny and is, as I believe 10th said, "treason".
True, logically, there is a difference between science and "philosophy" or "religion", but if the government was not into the education business (which is beyone their constitutional mandate), there would be no argument whatsoever... And Conrad would have to delete this entire thread.  |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Jefferson noted that the Founders wrote our basic personal freedoms in such a way as to preserve their integrity; we can state our basic freedoms in the same breath. |
Just because it's not delegated to the US by the Constitution nor prohibited by it to the States does not mean something is a personal freedom. The powers are reserved to the States and the people.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Although your ideas about keeping religion out of the classrooms might seem reasonable, they are actually helping to erode our basic freedoms. |
Getting whatever you want added to your local schools' curriculum is not a basic freedom.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | On the other hand, what does the "free" part of free religious speech mean to you? By trying to keep religious discussion within church walls, you are essentially reflecting the same narrow thinking that doesn't find anything wrong with designating an area on busses where colored people sit. |
Hardly. Do you think people really want religion to be taught in public schools? The crapheap that is our modern public school is what's responsible for our children's falling behind on the world scene, do you really want to add a failing in religion to that? Comparing this to segregation is inapplicable.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Just as I thought! You're looking for excuses to make such a system not work. |
What? I don't need to look for excuses, the reasons that this sort of idea is unfeasible are clear.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | It would be up to local taxpayers to negotiate what classes they are willing to pay for in their local public schools. |
Taxes do not work like this.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | You are ignoring that the 10th A. power of the states to address religious issues was probably entirely ignored in both of these cases. |
The first amendment was not even an issue in the second case. | Quote: | | In his ruling, Jones said that while intelligent design, or ID, arguments “may be true, a proposition on which the court takes no position, ID is not science.” Among other things, he said intelligent design “violates the centuries-old ground rules of science by invoking and permitting supernatural causation”; it relies on “flawed and illogical” arguments; and its attacks on evolution “have been refuted by the scientific community.” |
That it was interpreted to be unconstitutional as well is irrelevant.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | President Eisenhower probably should have encouraged state legislatures to make their own laws putting "under God" in the Pledge instead of doing it at the federal level. |
Just "probably," eh?
So it's sort of alright to violate the first amendment as long as it supports Christianity, then?
I mean, you realize that it's exactly the sort of thing that the first amendment is supposed to prevent, and didn't, when you're getting worked up over what the first amendment is preventing, and supposedly shouldn't? Why the double standard? |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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And while we're off topic (sorry Rev), here's a great email I got tonite:
After being interviewed by the school administration, the eager teaching
prospect said: "Let me see if I've got this right. You want me to go into
that room with all those kids, and fill their every waking moment with a
love for learning, and I'm supposed to instill a sense of pride in their
ethnicity, modify their disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of
abuse and even censor their T-shirt messages and dress habits. You want me to wage a war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, check their backpacks for weapons of mass destruction, and raise their self esteem. You want me to teach them patriotism, good citizenship, sportsmanship, fair play, how to register to vote, how to balance a checkbook, and how to apply for a job. I am to check their heads for lice, maintain a safe environment, recognize signs of antisocial behavior, make sure all students pass the state exams, even those who don't come to school regularly or complete any of their assignments. Plus, I am to make sure that all of the students with handicaps get an equal education regardless of the extent of their mental or physical handicap. I am to communicate regularly with the parents by letter, telephone, newsletter and report card. All of this I am to do with just a piece of chalk, a computer, a few books, a bulletin board, a big smile AND on a starting salary that qualifies my family for food stamps! You want me to do all of this and then you tell me...
I CAN'T PRAY?
...anonymous email author
Last edited by Flashman on Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Although I agree with you that creationism and ID does not belong in the science classrooms, you are ignoring that your secularist friends are keeping these discussions out of the public schools altogether on the basis of the treasonous idea of absolute c&s separation. |
And I've already pointed out that I don't agree.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | Much ado about nothing.
The people need to get a grip on their 10th A. powers and reform the tax laws along with the public schools. |
Maybe.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | You ignore the problem that the informal evolution idea that life is a random happening ultimately does make its way into the science classroom. |
I can't help what teachers are teaching. If they are, in fact, teaching that evolution is random, they are wrong. Informal ideas on evolution, however, come from a religious bias intended to demonify evolution. The idea that it's random would only come from someone uneducated on evolution or someone with a motive.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | No, legislators will never be able to please everybody concerning taxes. However, you've evidently chosen to ignore my point concerning legislators needing to make tax laws that at least try to respect all religious perspectives. |
It comes with the territory. You can't single out religion as the only thing people get to choose with their tax dollars. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The first europeans to populate this country did so to flee political and religious persecution. |
Sort of. They also fled Europe because they wanted to found a country where they could enforce their religion, in much the same way the Europeans had been doing to them. The Puritans didn't have religious freedom for all on their minds, they wanted a country with their religion as the official religion. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | but if the government was not into the education business (which is beyone their constitutional mandate), there would be no argument whatsoever |
Public schools are operated by the state, county, or city they are in, not by the federal government. Your entire argument is invalid, as this is exactly what was guaranteed by the 10th Amendment.
| Flashman wrote: | I CAN'T PRAY?
...anonymous email author |
"Anonymous email author" is an idiot. Nobody is being prevented from praying in a nondisruptive way. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | The first europeans to populate this country did so to flee political and religious persecution. |
Sort of. They also fled Europe because they wanted to found a country where they could enforce their religion, in much the same way the Europeans had been doing to them. The Puritans didn't have religious freedom for all on their minds, they wanted a country with their religion as the official religion. |
FFT, they didn't flee England to found a country, and you know that. They lived in a colony with laws and activities dictated by England. Many of them didn't flee, they were going to get some free land in a region that was somewhat like England but was considered a wilderness. They were going to get "free" land grants if they would only move there to populate the King's newly discovered land. The puritans only comprised a small chunk of the population, and only made the news because they were radical. The larger percentage were farmers and merchants (both secular and Christian) who only wanted to have a homestead or trading business and some sort of distance from the king's grasp.
Show me some stats on your statement about the intent of the puritans, tho'. I know you've done your research cuz you never make statements without something to back that up. (loving humorous sarcasm) |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:57 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | but if the government was not into the education business (which is beyone their constitutional mandate), there would be no argument whatsoever |
Public schools are operated by the state, county, or city they are in, not by the federal government. Your entire argument is invalid, as this is exactly what was guaranteed by the 10th Amendment. |
So there is no education secretary of the US? Sorry, I guess I was misled.
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | I CAN'T PRAY?
...anonymous email author |
"Anonymous email author" is an idiot. Nobody is being prevented from praying in a nondisruptive way. |
Is it disruptive if he/she prays?. If that offends you, then maybe you should take that up with the majority of the Americans. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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Dollars to donuts I'm going to be hearing about this for ages.
You're right about the first part, they were just founding colonies.
However.
Wikipedia link for starters
| Quote: | | The Pilgrims (the separatist, congregationalist Puritans who went to North America) are likewise famous for banning from their New England colonies many secular entertainments, such as games of chance, maypoles, and drama, all of which were perceived as kinds of immorality. |
| Quote: | | However, they believed that secular governors are accountable to God (not through the church, but alongside it) to protect and reward virtue, including "true religion", and to punish wrongdoers — a policy that is best described as non-interference rather than separation of church and state. |
"True religion" is not a term used by those seeking general religious freedom. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5037
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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FTT that's 3000 posts congrats!!  |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | So there is no education secretary of the US? Sorry, I guess I was misled. |
Where the Education Secretary comes from.
What does this have to do with my statement? The federal government does not operate schools.
| Flashman wrote: | | Is it disruptive if he/she prays? |
Not if he/she does it to his/herself. It becomes disruptive if they involve other students in it during class, as they won't necessarily hold the same beliefs.
| Flashman wrote: | | If that offends you, then maybe you should take that up with the majority of the Americans. |
Would it be okay with you if during the middle of class, a Muslim teacher faced Mecca and started praying out loud? |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | "True religion" is not a term used by those seeking general religious freedom. |
Well, I won't disagree with you on that. But, that's Wikipedia for ya. You, I think, would admit that "true religion" is not a phrase that comes easily out of "true Christians" mouths. I won't go into why, because you've heard that argument, but I will grant that there may have been some who held that thought.
It wasn't why the majority of those who colonized this nation came here, tho'. In those days the vast (I dare say) majority of those coming to the future America had visions of freedom of sorts and whatever degree of capitalism they could achieve...with no thought of a revolution. Adventurers with a Godly background might be more aptly put, but most of them were for sure Believers. Why, I don't really care, but history records most were Christians. It was the "way things were" back then.
I contend it was a right attitude. But whether right or not, that was their mindset at the time. Without the king breathing down their necks in Brighton, they could go hack wood all week and instead of watching the Simpons on weekends, they went to church...for whatever reasons. But, some of the preaching stuck. They, the ones with cajones, feared God and decided the King was a bit too heavy-handed. They revolted, leaning on God's good will, and won a victory that will be in the history books until people can't gather information any longer. They gave their lives, trusted in God, and won us all the right to say our piece.
God Bless Them All, each and every one of them. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:28 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | So there is no education secretary of the US? Sorry, I guess I was misled. |
Where the Education Secretary comes from.
What does this have to do with my statement? The federal government does not operate schools. |
He who controls the funding operates the schools. This is America!
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | Is it disruptive if he/she prays? |
Not if he/she does it to his/herself. It becomes disruptive if they involve other students in it during class, as they won't necessarily hold the same beliefs. |
The kids never said that. My kids love to pray in their classrooms. They aren't disrupted one little bit. In fact, they tell me they get peace from a prayer. And it helps them learn better. Wanna ask them yourself?
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | If that offends you, then maybe you should take that up with the majority of the Americans. |
Would it be okay with you if during the middle of class, a Muslim teacher faced Mecca and started praying out loud? |
Christian prayers rarely happen in the middle of a class (just kidding, I know what you mean). Yes, it would bother me. But, I think I'd have the decency to talk with my children and explain to them why he/she did that. I'd explain the difference between Islam and Christianity and that even teachers can be misled sometimes. See, in Christianity, prayers include the students...not by mandate, but by invitation. If they don't want to pray, no one is going to drop a black hood over their heads and make them cry.(hyperbole) |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | You, I think, would admit that "true religion" is not a phrase that comes easily out of "true Christians" mouths. |
Nope, people use "True Christian" instead, these days to mean the same thing.
As to the prayer in classrooms, it's a preventative measure. You're not supposed to be discussing religion in, say, Spanish class, you're supposed to be discussing Spanish.
Is it perfect? No. But how hard is it to simply pray quietly to yourself?
| Flashman wrote: | | Christian prayers rarely happen in the middle of a class (just kidding, I know what you mean). Yes, it would bother me. But, I think I'd have the decency to talk with my children and explain to them why he/she did that. |
Most of the Americans complaining about prayer in school would get up in arms if they heard that a teacher was praying to Mecca in class, and you know it (let it be known that I don't particularly like this form of argument). And it's for that reason precisely that open prayer doesn't belong in schools.
| Flashman wrote: | | See, in Christianity, prayers include the students...not by mandate, but by invitation. |
And when a student refuses the invitation, it causes disruption. It's not worth the hassle.
Students aren't allowed to bring weapons on school property, either. Even if they're super-responsible. Why?
Back on the topic of the First Amendment: it's clear that the First Amendment does not just apply to the federal government. If it did, individual states could freely establish laws infringing on freedom of speech, could pass censorship laws, could keep people from peaceably assembling.
Do you think this is what the founding fathers wanted? |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:41 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | You, I think, would admit that "true religion" is not a phrase that comes easily out of "true Christians" mouths. |
Nope, people use "True Christian" instead, these days to mean the same thing. |
Maybe, but you missed the point.
| FFT wrote: | As to the prayer in classrooms, it's a preventative measure. You're not supposed to be discussing religion in, say, Spanish class, you're supposed to be discussing Spanish.
Is it perfect? No. But how hard is it to simply pray quietly to yourself? |
It's easy to pray quietly to oneself. I do it all the time. But then, I also do it out loud. If it offends someone, too bad. I'm offended all the time, but I don't make a big deal out of it.
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | Christian prayers rarely happen in the middle of a class (just kidding, I know what you mean). Yes, it would bother me. But, I think I'd have the decency to talk with my children and explain to them why he/she did that. |
Most of the Americans complaining about prayer in school would get up in arms if they heard that a teacher was praying to Mecca in class, and you know it (let it be known that I don't particularly like this form of argument). And it's for that reason precisely that open prayer doesn't belong in schools. |
After having re read this, I probably should have pointed out that what "bothered" me about the prayer to Mecca was the sadness I felt for that teacher. Most people are fed up with the entire topic. Only the die-hard antireligeous zealouts are still making a bunch of anti-prayer noise about it and they're a small group out of the entire population. Even the Christians who fought to keep prayer in school are strangely quiet these days. They're probably working hard to keep crosses in cemetaries.
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | See, in Christianity, prayers include the students...not by mandate, but by invitation. |
And when a student refuses the invitation, it causes disruption. It's not worth the hassle. |
I disagree. I think it is worth the hassle. There are tons of disruptions in classrooms, all the time.
| FFT wrote: | | Students aren't allowed to bring weapons on school property, either. Even if they're super-responsible. Why? |
I took a gun safety class in my Jr. High. Personal weapons aren't necessary in schools. If the school is doing its job, no kid should feel like he needs to carry one. If there's a bully, and the school authorities can't control the situation then I'd be all for that particular kid carrying some sort of defense weapon (probably not a gun) which will even the odds. The other part of this argument is because a few schools over the course of a hundred years or so have had some problems with punk kids and weapons, you don't have to make policies (like banning pocket knives) for the rest of the nation. It's hysteria-driven policies that prove to be the worst policies. ...and there's no shortage of those these days.
| FFT wrote: | Back on the topic of the First Amendment: it's clear that the First Amendment does not just apply to the federal government. If it did, individual states could freely establish laws infringing on freedom of speech, could pass censorship laws, could keep people from peaceably assembling.
Do you think this is what the founding fathers wanted? |
Well, I'm a bit confused by the question. The constitution, as you already know, was written by the founders to establish a limited government. The constitution places those limits on the feds, but not on the citizens at large. The states, in order to be a state, has to have a constitution that is not repugnant to the US Constitution. The founding fathers certainly respected the individualism of each state, but in order to secure personal liberties, the states had to recognize that the people have ALL the rights, the states have less and the feds have even less. Many people believe that the constitution is the place where we get our rights and liberties. Or the respective amendments. To many it's just a "g.d.piece of paper". Even idiots have the right to free speech.
And, for the record, the states already "freely establish laws infringing on freedom of speech, could pass censorship laws, could keep people from peaceably assembling". One day a bunch of torqued-off patriots are going to rise up over it. I'm betting it's in my lifetime. |
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