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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6292
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:55 am Post subject: |
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| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Not only did you sidestep my remark about secularists stifling our religious freedoms by keeping creationism and ID out of the classrooms |
Keeping not-science out of science classrooms has nothing to do with religious freedoms. Geology courses don't teach a flat Earth, either.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | but you are also ignoring the problem of unfair taxation. |
Sorry, but if you don't like the fact that you can't determine where your taxes go, leave. It's not an option. Our country wouldn't survive if citizens got to determine where their tax dollars went.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | For example, why should I have to pay not only my expenses to teach whatever I want, but also be required to help pay for evolution teachers in public schools to teach kids the atheist perspective that life is a random happening? |
1. Evolution isn't random.
2. Because you, and everyone else, have to pay taxes to support public schools. If you don't, they will not work. The people that pay most of the taxes in this country (the rich) mostly send their children to private schools. If they stopped their tax money from going to public schools, the schools would be doomed.
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Jefferson noted the problem of things like tyrannical taxes in his time. |
It's a necessary evil. Sorry. |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | Are you not aware of the ongoing legal battles concerning secular factions who are keeping religious theme discussions such as creationism and ID out of public school classrooms? |
And how is this a religious freedom being walked over? |
Jefferson noted that the Founders wrote our basic personal freedoms in such a way as to preserve their integrity; we can state our basic freedoms in the same breath.
| Quote: | | "One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382 |
Although your ideas about keeping religion out of the classrooms might seem reasonable, they are actually helping to erode our basic freedoms.
| FFT wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | I agree that creationism and ID should not be presented as science topics. It is wrong for creationists to try to slide creationism and ID under the science classroom doors. |
Then what? I'm perfectly in support of inserting a World Religions course in schools.
Hell, I'm even okay with $religion theology courses, as long as they are not mandatory. Thing is, why do they need to have these classes in school? Isn't that what church is for? |
Yes, I will emphasize that religious theme classes in public schools will have to be non-mandatory to respect people's 14th A. protected personal federal rights.
On the other hand, what does the "free" part of free religious speech mean to you? By trying to keep religious discussion within church walls, you are essentially reflecting the same narrow thinking that doesn't find anything wrong with designating an area on busses where colored people sit.
| FFT wrote: | | And how would they present all the different near-violently opposed factions in Christianity? |
Just as I thought! You're looking for excuses to make such a system not work.
It would be up to local taxpayers to negotiate what classes they are willing to pay for in their local public schools. And who knows? Christians may decide not to pay for any Christian theme classes for the reason that you just stated.
| FFT wrote: | | It's just too much hassle when there are better options. I just don't think a parent would want their child educated in their religion in a public school. |
And the parents, not you or people like you, will make that decision.
| FFT wrote: | This shouldn't have happened, I agree. I'm perfectly okay with a course that teaches ID. I'm against it on a fundamental level, but that's because what's going to happen is the kids taking it are going to disrupt their biology classes with ID nonsense.
This is perfectly fine, regardless of whether the first amendment applies. ID is not biology, it shouldn't be taught in a biology course. |
You are ignoring that the 10th A. power of the states to address religious issues was probably entirely ignored in both of these cases.
| FFT wrote: | | Let me ask you this: do you think "under God" should be in the pledge? |
I'm glad you asked this. President Eisenhower probably should have encouraged state legislatures to make their own laws putting "under God" in the Pledge instead of doing it at the federal level. Also, public schools need to respect people's 14th Amendment protections by not only not requiring people to say the "under God" part, but also not requiring people to recite the Pledge anyway. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Romans 13:7
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: |
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| 10thAmendment wrote: | | Ana wrote: |
Aren't you free to start your own school where you can teach whatever you darn well please? |
Not only did you sidestep my remark about secularists stifling our religious freedoms by keeping creationism and ID out of the classrooms, but you are also ignoring the problem of unfair taxation. For example, why should I have to pay not only my expenses to teach whatever I want, but also be required to help pay for evolution teachers in public schools to teach kids the atheist perspective that life is a random happening? Jefferson noted the problem of things like tyrannical taxes in his time. |
Your question is somewhat akin to "why should I pay for roadway taxes? I don't drive" or "why should I pay school taxes? I don't have kids." If taxes were to apply only to certain people, then it wouldn't be public, it would be private. Public facilities exist because the population, in general, deems them desirable or necessary, for the good of either the individual or the population as a whole.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | Not only did you sidestep my remark about secularists stifling our religious freedoms by keeping creationism and ID out of the classrooms |
Keeping not-science out of science classrooms has nothing to do with religious freedoms. Geology courses don't teach a flat Earth, either. |
Sigh. :^(
You sidestepped the issue again.
Although I agree with you that creationism and ID does not belong in the science classrooms, you are ignoring that your secularist friends are keeping these discussions out of the public schools altogether on the basis of the treasonous idea of absolute c&s separation.
| FFT wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | but you are also ignoring the problem of unfair taxation. |
Sorry, but if you don't like the fact that you can't determine where your taxes go, leave. It's not an option. Our country wouldn't survive if citizens got to determine where their tax dollars went. |
Much ado about nothing.
The people need to get a grip on their 10th A. powers and reform the tax laws along with the public schools.
| FFT wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | For example, why should I have to pay not only my expenses to teach whatever I want, but also be required to help pay for evolution teachers in public schools to teach kids the atheist perspective that life is a random happening? |
1. Evolution isn't random. |
You ignore the problem that the informal evolution idea that life is a random happening ultimately does make its way into the science classroom.
| FFT wrote: | | 2. Because you, and everyone else, have to pay taxes to support public schools. If you don't, they will not work. The people that pay most of the taxes in this country (the rich) mostly send their children to private schools. If they stopped their tax money from going to public schools, the schools would be doomed. |
No, legislators will never be able to please everybody concerning taxes. However, you've evidently chosen to ignore my point concerning legislators needing to make tax laws that at least try to respect all religious perspectives.
| FFT wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | Jefferson noted the problem of things like tyrannical taxes in his time. |
It's a necessary evil. Sorry. |
This thread is not about taxes. It's about church and state separation problems.
Again, the people need to wise up to what the honest interpretation of the 1st, 10th and 14th Amendments actually say about their religious freedoms. Then, when the people wise up to the fact that they are essentially prisoners of conscious to the bogus interpretation of the establishment clause by a renegade, anti-religious expression Court, they will hopefully heed Lincoln's advice for dealing with crooked judges.
| Quote: | | "We the People are the rightful master of both congress and the courts - not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." --Abraham Lincoln, Political debates between Lincoln and Douglas, 1858. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| 10thAmendment wrote: | | However, I'm not talking about classes that respect all religious perspectives. I'm talking about tax laws that respect all religious perspectives. |
| 10thAmendment wrote: | | This thread is not about taxes. It's about church and state separation problems. |
This thread is not about taxes, and yet you're talking about taxes . . .?
This thread is actually about this:
| admin, in the opening post of this thread, wrote: | | I had a friend tell me once (conservative, Calvary Chapel) that they were very tired of people twisting the Separation of Church and State provisions by the founding fathers. My friend said that the separation of church and state was just to prevent the government from declaring a state church, like England had done at the time of the US Constitution. |
Might I suggest you create a new thread, 10th?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | Ana wrote: |
Aren't you free to start your own school where you can teach whatever you darn well please? |
Not only did you sidestep my remark about secularists stifling our religious freedoms by keeping creationism and ID out of the classrooms, but you are also ignoring the problem of unfair taxation. For example, why should I have to pay not only my expenses to teach whatever I want, but also be required to help pay for evolution teachers in public schools to teach kids the atheist perspective that life is a random happening? Jefferson noted the problem of things like tyrannical taxes in his time. |
Your question is somewhat akin to "why should I pay for roadway taxes? I don't drive" or "why should I pay school taxes? I don't have kids." If taxes were to apply only to certain people, then it wouldn't be public, it would be private. Public facilities exist because the population, in general, deems them desirable or necessary, for the good of either the individual or the population as a whole. |
Like FFT, you are sidestepping the problem that lawmakers have simply not addressed laws, especially tax laws, that at complement the 10th A. protected powers to the states to address religious issues. Indeed, the fact that both our legislators and the courts are ignoring the 10th A. protected power of the states to address religious issues is a BIG problem. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1564
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| 10thAmendment wrote: |
Like FFT, you are sidestepping the problem that lawmakers have simply not addressed laws, especially tax laws, that at complement the 10th A. protected powers to the states to address religious issues. Indeed, the fact that both our legislators and the courts are ignoring the 10th A. protected power of the states to address religious issues is a BIG problem. |
So what is it you want to have happen, specifically? Your religious group to be exempted from certain portions of taxes? Your religious agenda being taught to everyone's children? Things that aren't on your religious agenda to be kept out of the public schools, despite that the democratic process brought these things into the classroom in the first place? Certain scientific processes and findings kept away from the public because you don't understand it, or because it doesn't jive with your understanding of your religion?
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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How do you get the 10th A to guarantee a protected right of a state to address religious dogma?
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | However, I'm not talking about classes that respect all religious perspectives. I'm talking about tax laws that respect all religious perspectives. |
| 10thAmendment wrote: | This thread is not about taxes. It's about church and state separation problems.
This thread is not about taxes, and yet you're talking about taxes . . .? |
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You are ignoring that I made it clear, as evidenced by both of your quotes of me from previous posts, that I was talking about taxes as they pertained to c&s separation issues, particularly the 10th Amendment. But I wasn't about to let FFT try to find a way out of confronting 10th A. issues by changing the subject to taxes in general.
| Ana wrote: | This thread is actually about this:
| admin, in the opening post of this thread, wrote: | | I had a friend tell me once (conservative, Calvary Chapel) that they were very tired of people twisting the Separation of Church and State provisions by the founding fathers. My friend said that the separation of church and state was just to prevent the government from declaring a state church, like England had done at the time of the US Constitution. |
Might I suggest you create a new thread, 10th? |
Are you an administrator Ana? |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: |
Like FFT, you are sidestepping the problem that lawmakers have simply not addressed laws, especially tax laws, that at complement the 10th A. protected powers to the states to address religious issues. Indeed, the fact that both our legislators and the courts are ignoring the 10th A. protected power of the states to address religious issues is a BIG problem. |
So what is it you want to have happen, specifically? Your religious group to be exempted from certain portions of taxes? Your religious agenda being taught to everyone's children? Things that aren't on your religious agenda to be kept out of the public schools, despite that the democratic process brought these things into the classroom in the first place? Certain scientific processes and findings kept away from the public because you don't understand it, or because it doesn't jive with your understanding of your religion? |
As I have previously mentioned, using public schools as an example, the states have the constitutional power (10th) to authorize public schools to lead non-mandatory (14th) classroom discussions on the PROS and CONS of evolution, creationism and irreducible complexity, for example, regardless that atheists, separatists, secular judges and the liberal media are misleading the people to think that doing such things in public schools is unconstitutional.
But I also advocate fair tax laws that recognize that atheists taxpayers, for example, shouldn't have to help pay for Bibles for public school Bible classes. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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You go 10th. You are so on the right track. God love ya!!!!
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | 10thAmendment wrote: | | Ana wrote: |
Aren't you free to start your own school where you can teach whatever you darn well please? |
Not only did you sidestep my remark about secularists stifling our religious freedoms by keeping creationism and ID out of the classrooms, but you are also ignoring the problem of unfair taxation. For example, why should I have to pay not only my expenses to teach whatever I want, but also be required to help pay for evolution teachers in public schools to teach kids the atheist perspective that life is a random happening? Jefferson noted the problem of things like tyrannical taxes in his time. |
Your question is somewhat akin to "why should I pay for roadway taxes? I don't drive" or "why should I pay school taxes? I don't have kids." If taxes were to apply only to certain people, then it wouldn't be public, it would be private. Public facilities exist because the population, in general, deems them desirable or necessary, for the good of either the individual or the population as a whole. |
Again, this is not a general discussion on taxes.
But to address your concern about taxes that will be used for special interest purposes in public schools, if Christians, for example, want Christian materials presented in public school classrooms, then willing Christian taxpayers in the school's district can pay for them. The same goes for other faiths. |
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10thAmendment
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | How do you get the 10th A to guarantee a protected right of a state to address religious dogma?
Fake |
Do you mean that since the 10th A. doesn't say anything about religion verbatim, how do I know that it protects the power of the states to address religious issues? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| 10thA wrote: | | Are you an administrator Ana? |
No she isn't, but I am and I would like to see this thread get back on track.
Admin wrote:
I had a friend tell me once (conservative, Calvary Chapel) that they were very tired of people twisting the Separation of Church and State provisions by the founding fathers. My friend said that the separation of church and state was just to prevent the government from declaring a state church, like England had done at the time of the US Constitution.
| P123 wrote: | I think the founding fathers had more on their minds than this. They were pretty bright guys; their motivation couldn't have been so simplistic.
Did your buddy give you any references or quotes from the founding fathers backing this up? |
What more did the founding fathers have on their mind P? I think their main motivation regarding the seperation of church and state was the tendancy of the state to support and promote specific religious views and in so doing generate discrimination, intimidation, and other such atrocities against those not adhering to the states mandates.
If you want references backing this up do a short review of American history. The first europeans to populate this country did so to flee political and religious persecution. The various governments supported and promoted state sponsored and endorsed religions and persecuted those who did not comply, they came across the pond in order to practice the religions of their choice free from said persecution. The founding fathers had one major idea in mind - prevent the state from administering one religion over another.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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