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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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 Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| No, I wasn't kidding. Secular humanism tries to erase the differences between men and women. That doesn't work either. Furthermore, it has led to an immoral society where families must struggle mightily to stay together. I think we're headed the wrong way. Women are not free to be women with secular humanism. We're expected to like men. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | No, I wasn't kidding. Secular humanism tries to erase the differences between men and women. That doesn't work either. Furthermore, it has led to an immoral society where families must struggle mightily to stay together. I think we're headed the wrong way. Women are not free to be women with secular humanism. We're expected to like men. |
I'm pretty sure you just proved all the points that Biblical attitudes are sexist. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Yes, but the Bible does not condemn racism or sexism very explicitly or in harsh tones. In fact, there are plenty of verses that can be (mis)interpreted to help justfiy racism and sexim. |
There are also plenty of verses which directly justify racism and sexism, particularly in the Old Testament.
| cballard wrote: | | Furthermore, it has led to an immoral society where families must struggle mightily to stay together. |
What? What society is guided by secular humanism in which this is a problem? |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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P, do you deny that there are diffeences between the sexes? I have no idea of your logic.
FFT, you and I really don't live on the same planet. I would say all of Europe is governed by secular humanists. Although America claims to be a Christian country it isn't allowed to call itself one, and there's scant evidence among the people to prove it is one. In all these western countries, families and sexual morality are in steep decline. You have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to see that. |
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Gabbylittleangel
House Cat
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 173
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | How much clearer can He be? |
Rev, Shining light in front of blind people does not make them to see. Shouting at the deaf does not cause them to hear.
I know I am going to reap the harvest for that. What goes around, comes around. Feel free to pick this up and sling it back at me.
Gabbylittleangel |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | I would say all of Europe is governed by secular humanists. |
You'd be wrong. Most European governments are secular, yes, but not as a philosophy. They are not humanists of any fashion. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
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FFT, please tell me what a humanist would do differently politically than what the secular governments do? Secular humanistic philosophy and secular governments are the same. However, just like in Christianity, humanists come in different stripes and colors depending on their personalities. I think you're trying to split hairs by separating secularists and humanists. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Explain the difference if you can. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | FFT, please tell me what a humanist would do differently politically than what the secular governments do? |
From Wikipedia: | Quote: | Secular humanism describes a world view with the following elements and principles:
Need to test beliefs - A conviction that dogmas, ideologies and traditions, whether religious, political or social, must be weighed and tested by each individual and not simply accepted on faith.
[What government does this?]
Reason, evidence, scientific method - Commitment to the use of critical reason, factual evidence, and scientific methods of inquiry, rather than faith and mysticism, in seeking solutions to human problems and answers to important human questions.
[Fair enough.]
Fulfillment, growth, creativity - A primary concern with fulfillment, growth, and creativity for both the individual and humankind in general.
[Is this something governments have control over?]
Search for truth - A constant search for objective truth, with the understanding that new knowledge and experience constantly alter our imperfect perception of it.
[Is this something governments have control over?]
This life - A concern for this life and a commitment to making it meaningful through better understanding of ourselves, our history, our intellectual and artistic achievements, and the outlooks of those who differ from us.
[I guess.]
Ethics - A search for viable individual, social and political principles of ethical conduct, judging them on their ability to enhance human well-being and individual responsibility.
[I guess.]
Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open exchange of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
[Sure.] |
| cballard wrote: | | Secular humanistic philosophy and secular governments are the same. |
Incorrect. Just because a government is secular does not mean it is also humanistic.
| cballard wrote: | | However, just like in Christianity, humanists come in different stripes and colors depending on their personalities. |
Marxist humanism, New Humanism, Posthumanism, Religious humanism (Christian existential humanism/Humanistic Judaism), Renaissance humanism, secular humanism, transhumanism, as well as probably many other variations, yes.
| cballard wrote: | | I think you're trying to split hairs by separating secularists and humanists. |
This isn't splitting hairs. It's quite easy to be secular and not humanist, or humanist and not secular. They are philosophies governing vastly different concepts.
| cballard wrote: | If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Explain the difference if you can. |
Done. I'm embarassed that this was even an issue.
Secular is not equivalent to humanistic.
Hell, the classic example of the Soviet Union as an atheistic (secular) government, can you seriously call their government secularly humanistic throughout its secular history? |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| You are embarrassed to be clasified with regualar human beings??? What truth do you think "humanists" hold? By your definitions, I too am a humanist. How do you think one decides truth and good without going through these steps? Embarrassed indeed! Who do you think you are? Humanists hold no special truth except for what they themselves decide. You don't really know what is good or evil and you think mankind will eventually learn enough and be good enough to solve all problems. Dream on FFT!!!! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | You are embarrassed to be clasified with regualar human beings??? |
What? Please explain where you drew this idea from. You should note, I said that I'm embarassed that this is even an issue, I shouldn't have to explain this to you as if you were a child. That you're extrapolating that I'm "embarassed to be clasified with regualar human beings" shows that apparently I do have to explain this to you as if you were a child.
| cballard wrote: | | What truth do you think "humanists" hold? |
I'm not really a humanist, so I can't speak for them.
| cballard wrote: | | By your definitions, I too am a humanist. |
"My" definitions? I don't determine the definitions for philosophies.
Humanism is a broad category of active ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationalism. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith, the supernatural, or divinely revealed texts. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of human nature, suggesting that solutions to our social and cultural problems cannot be parochial.
I don't think you really understand what a humanist is.
| cballard wrote: | | How do you think one decides truth and good without going through these steps? Embarrassed indeed! Who do you think you are? |
Seriously, do you even know what we're talking about?
| cballard wrote: | | Dream on FFT!!!! |
One of us is very confused. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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To sum up why you are clearly misunderstanding:
| cballard wrote: | | The truth of the matter is that Christianity gives a woman more value than any other religion or philosophy. |
This is false. I didn't even go with the easy disproof, the religions that have centered on mother and woman worship. I instead went with a pair of philosophies which hold humans to be equal regardless of gender, nationality, color, and so on.
You then responded that secular humanism (which has never been instituted officially by any government) has tried to erase the differences between men and women (false, humanism doesn't say there are no differences, it says that the genders are equal. There is a subtle but important difference), and that it has led to "an immoral society where families must struggle mightily to stay together" (false, as our (USA) government has always been secular, and has never been humanistic).
I challenged you to name a society guided by secular humanism (there are none).
You responded that that all of Europe is governed by secular humanists. As an aside, I should point out that just because those governing are secular humanists doesn't make the government or society secular humanists. Most of the people that have been in power in the USA have been Christians, but the government itself has stayed for the most part secular. You then threw out a red herring about the decline of families and sexual morality (right) in the USA.
I'm done summarizing.
You are equivocating secular governing bodies with secular humanism, and it's making your points confusing. Please stop. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | P, do you deny that there are diffeences between the sexes? I have no idea of your logic.
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Yes, of course there are differences between the sexes. Actually, there really is only one difference: women have no Y chromosome, and men have one. All other differences such as in strength and reproductive organs are caused by that.
However, this chromosomal difference IS NOT a good reason to treat them badly.
| cballard wrote: |
FFT, you and I really don't live on the same planet. I would say all of Europe is governed by secular humanists.
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What?!? There isn't a single government on Earth governed by secular humanists. Go ahead and name one!
Unfortunately, secular humanists hold practically no political power on our planet. If this were different, then the world would be a better place.
| cballard wrote: |
Although America claims to be a Christian country it isn't allowed to call itself one, and there's scant evidence among the people to prove it is one.
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"One nation, under God", almost all elected officials being Christians, and Christianity being by far the predominant religion aren't evidence enough for you?
| cballard wrote: |
In all these western countries, families and sexual morality are in steep decline. You have to be deaf, dumb, and blind not to see that. |
I think you could have stopped at deaf and blind... The inability to speak doesn't really add anything to your hyperbole. 
Do you have statistics to back this up? I am particularly interested in the 'steep' part. There are certainly segments of the population where 'sexual morality' has improved CONSIDERABLY. One example that springs to mind is the male homosexual community. Instead of frequenting bath houses and getting as much sex as they could in one night with as many different partners, many gay men are now getting married and staying in monogamous relationships (no thanks to right-wing Christians who pretend to care about 'family values'). |
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mag_dala55
Tadpole
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: Let God speak |
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Now my question is settled. Before, I did not realize that God is speaking in parables, or His "spiritual language." Men (male) and women (female) to us are PHYSICAL gender. To God He does not recognize this:
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
To God thee are only two "spiritual men."
1. The One True GOD, and
2. SATAN (false god)
All people are supposed to be SPIRITUAL WOMEN (female) in the eyes of God. I read a wonderful article on this:
Women Forbidden to Wear Man's Clothe
Introduction:
- With human understanding, how senseless and flimsy is this God's edict
- With God's explanation of His words however, it becomes a great dictum.
http://www.purechristianity.org/index.php/news/19 |
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pogminky
Big Goldfish
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 71
Location: England
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| Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:51 am Post subject: |
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Hi (I'm kinda new),
just here to add my 2p worth. I will steer clear (if possible) from discussing humanist philosophy, human biology and ducks (?) and try to focus upon what I think the opening statement was about (apologies if I misread it).
The debated point seems to be that the bible presents a chauvenistic viewpoint (especially in the writings attributed to Moses and Paul). In short, by all modern Western standards of what is right, this is true.
Whilst it could, reasnobly successfully, be argued that Christianity improved the lot for ancient women and was less chauvenisitic and patriarchal than 1st centuary Judaism and other near-Eastern religions, the language and (apparent) teaching of the bible (both OT & NT) seems inadequate by modern standards (no matter how progressive it was in its time).
Attitudes towards gender roles have changed within Christianity over the past 2000 years, but the majority of the church remains 'behind' the rest of the modern, Western, secular world. Whether or not the church has accurately interpreted or enacted the message of the bible is a separate, and very large, issue.
However, if one believes that the bible is in any way authoratative, then the teachings of the scriptures must be wrestled with - regardless of how distasteful they may seem (or be). How a Christian interprets the scriptures will depend a lot upon their chosen hermaneutic system, but it seems pointless to argue that in comparison to modern humanism (and by using mainstream ethics) the bible has an enlightened view of women.
I should point out that I try not to either aculturate or decontextualise scripture, and in my reading of the NT I think it is quite clear that women and men are given differing roles in both the domestic and religious spheres. It is also clear to me that the bible teaches the equality of worth for both sexes, whilst perhaps not emphasising this as strongly as most modern readers would wish. It is also clear that Christians throughout history have interpreted scripture in various ways, some ways leading to the oppression or marginalisation of women (and men in certain specific areas).
I think it is a slippery slope to separate the teachings of Jesus from the rest of the NT, affording one a higher canonical status than the other (especially since Jesus never wrote any of the gospels)- but this is a different discussion.
The bible is sexist by modern, humanist definition (and majority ethics). Of course, this doesn't make it wrong...but that is a discussion on authority and ethical systems (i.e how do we decide what is right and wrong). |
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athisfeet
Little Goldfish
Joined: 13 Aug 2007
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| sandra3102 wrote: | Therefore God forbids the people, both male and female, or "spiritual women" to speak in the churches. Because of this violation, Christianity is divided into denominations. I read all of these in a wonderful book I happened to buy at Barnes and Noble:
CHRISTIANITY: YESTERDAY AND TODAY
(The Discord Among Christian Sects)
ISBN: 1589612833 |
That 's how I see it too. I'll have to check out that book. Thanks! |
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