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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: The Pro-Life movement's goals are fundamentally un-American |
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The Pro-Life movement's goal is to have abortion outlawed. I claim that this goal is fundamentally un-American.
The idea of ANY group imposing their views onto another group goes against very core American values, most of all the love of freedom.
If left-handed people were to get enough political power to pass laws requiring everyone to be left-handed, then that would be really bad. If Muslims were elected into power and passed laws requiring everyone to pray five times a day, then that would be really bad. If atheists came to power and outlawed religion, then that would be really bad.
The idea of some group representing much less than the entire population passing laws and forcing their values onto the many people who disagree with them should be repugnant to all Americans, regardless of whether they agree with the proposed legislation or not.
After all, even if we grant that abortion is murder according to the Bible, there are A LOT of Americans who don't follow the Bible, and there are a lot of Americans who follow the Bible, but disagree that abortion is murder.
So how can it possibly be ok to take scripture (the interpretation of which isn't even universally agreed upon) from ONE religion and impose it on EVERYONE else?
How is that consistent with American values and the American sense of freedom?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hmmm... interesting logic P...
What if people came together and passed a law which required drivers of automobiles to be trained, tested, and licensed? Wouldn't that impinge upon that much loved freedom? What if they passed laws that required a person to pay for something in a store that they wanted?
I understand you are Canadian, but do you not understand democracy and government? The majority agrees upon that which is acceptable or not in a society and passes laws to allow or prohibit those things, not everyone agrees, and some may feel that thier freedoms are being imposed upon, but the majority decides what is best for the whole.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
What if people came together and passed a law which required drivers of automobiles to be trained, tested, and licensed? Wouldn't that impinge upon that much loved freedom? What if they passed laws that required a person to pay for something in a store that they wanted?
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Yes, but the VAST majority of people agree that people should be licensed and that theft is bad. We're talking like > 99.9%. The same definitely cannot be said for abortion. With abortion, it's more like 50 / 50, and rights should never be taken away given such weak support.
| RevJP wrote: |
I understand you are Canadian, but do you not understand democracy and government? The majority agrees upon that which is acceptable or not in a society and passes laws to allow or prohibit those things, not everyone agrees, and some may feel that thier freedoms are being imposed upon, but the majority decides what is best for the whole. |
It is generally a bad idea to let a majority decide to take away rights from a minority. For example, in Canada we have a lot of native reservations, and natives have a number of rights and perks that others don't get. If we put it up to a vote, the natives would probably have all of these perks revoked. Would that be ok?
Or a different example: what if all the right-handed people got together in their big majority and decided to make it illegal for people to write with their left hands?
When we're talking about rights being revoked, the majority should be a HUGE majority. Rights and freedoms should be a cherished and protected thing; a 51% majority makes it much to easy to have those rights taken away.
Incidentally, do you agree that the idea of one religious group imposing their ideals on everyone is un-American?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
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Baby killers will grasp at any straw to get the blood they need.
thunder
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Submit to God in Christ |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | Baby killers will grasp at any straw to get the blood they need.
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That may be so, but fetuses are not babies. They're fetuses.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
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And hardly anybody kills fetuses. The vast majority of abortions are performed in the first trimester, when it is an embryo.
And what the hell? "The blood they need?" |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
And what the hell? "The blood they need?" |
Didn't you know that abortions are committed by atheists in order to get the blood that they need for their blood sacrifices to their God Charles Darwin?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:25 am Post subject: |
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Minor, but crucial correction.
the development of the zygote, if left alone, will develope to a blatocyst, and an embryo, before becoming a foetus after 9 weeks since fertilisation (11 weeks since last menstruation).
Both before the end of the first trimester.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | It is generally a bad idea to let a majority decide to take away rights from a minority |
Firstly, we are not talking about taking rights away from a 'minority' (females can hardly be considered a minority).
Secondly, you are arguing the revocation of 'perks' and rights, and the abortion debate isn't about that. Abortion is not a perk, nor is it necessarily considered a right. If it were a right, it would not be debated so heavily, nor regulated the way it is and has been.
| Quote: | | Incidentally, do you agree that the idea of one religious group imposing their ideals on everyone is un-American? |
Which 'one' religious group are you referring to? Christians? Muslims? Mormons? Jehovas Witnesses? Catholics? Hindus? These are some of the religious groups which by and large object to abortion and taken all together, they could hardly be considered a minority, could they?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Good point, RevJP. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | It is generally a bad idea to let a majority decide to take away rights from a minority |
Firstly, we are not talking about taking rights away from a 'minority' (females can hardly be considered a minority).
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Yeah, but how does this matter. It is bad when a majority takes away rights from a minority. It is also bad when a minority takes away rights from a majority. It is also bad when some group takes away rights from an equally-sized group.
America is all about personal freedom. This is a fundamentally core American value. And certainly having the right to choose what to do with your own body is the most clear-cut case of when someone's freedom should be respected and protected.
| RevJP wrote: |
Secondly, you are arguing the revocation of 'perks' and rights, and the abortion debate isn't about that. Abortion is not a perk, nor is it necessarily considered a right. If it were a right, it would not be debated so heavily, nor regulated the way it is and has been.
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You're not looking at this the right way. The proper, American way of looking at this is from the standpoint of freedom. Personal freedom is a great thing. And certainly all personal freedoms having to do with your own body are rights. Calling them 'perks' just isn't appropriate. The fact that the government can't tell you what to do with your body is not a perk; it is a fundamental right and freedom that all people on Earth (and especially Americans) should hold sacred.
| RevJP wrote: |
| Quote: | | Incidentally, do you agree that the idea of one religious group imposing their ideals on everyone is un-American? |
Which 'one' religious group are you referring to? Christians? Muslims? Mormons? Jehovas Witnesses? Catholics? Hindus? These are some of the religious groups which by and large object to abortion and taken all together, they could hardly be considered a minority, could they? |
That doesn't really matter. NO group, no matter how large, should be able to impose their religious views onto someone else. The whole concept is just un-American.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 7:42 pm Post subject: |
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I really do appreciate the lessons in how to be a true American, particularly coming from the Canadian 
America is about democracy, not anarchy
de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
So I challenge your assertion that personal freedom is a core american value. It is important, but this country was founded on democratic values and basic human rights - the personal freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want is not a basic human right, nor is it a democratic cornerstone.
| Quote: | | certainly having the right to choose what to do with your own body is the most clear-cut case of when someone's freedom should be respected and protected. |
Two problems here: First, doing what you want with your own body is one thing, but the abortion debate is centered around somone doing something to someone else's body and until there can be an agreement on the status of the unborn, that debate will never be settled.
Second, our country, and yours has many laws prohibiting and limiting what one can do with their own body (ie; suicide) so putting abortion into that mix isn't all that unreasonable.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I really do appreciate the lessons in how to be a true American, particularly coming from the Canadian
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Hey, it's one of the things I really respect about your country. I think I understand the concept pretty well because I'm a fan of it!
Besides, I'm not a Canadian citizen, just a permanent resident. I'll give you a hint: English is my second language.
| RevJP wrote: |
America is about democracy, not anarchy
de·moc·ra·cy ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-mkr-s)
n. pl. de·moc·ra·cies
Government by the people, exercised either directly or through elected representatives.
A political or social unit that has such a government.
The common people, considered as the primary source of political power.
Majority rule.
The principles of social equality and respect for the individual within a community.
So I challenge your assertion that personal freedom is a core american value. It is important, but this country was founded on democratic values and basic human rights - the personal freedom to do whatever you want, whenever you want is not a basic human right, nor is it a democratic cornerstone.
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I totally agree that democracy is a core American value. However, democracy is only part of the picture. Democracy alone does not capture American values. There are plenty of countries on Earth that are run by democracy. What sets America apart from those countries is its love of freedom and its respect for individual rights. This is a really important point. There is no country on Earth in which its people have as many protected rights and freedoms as in America, and you should be very, very, very proud of that.
Democracy by itself is not good enough. In order to really create a great society, you also need freedom.
For example, under a simple democracy in which people don't care that much about freedom, it would be possible for the right-handed people in the country to elect a government and make left-handedness illegal. This is not ok, but it is possible in a democracy.
It is NOT possible in a democracy in which the people ALSO have a supreme respect for individual rights and freedoms. In other words it is NOT possible in America.
That is why I say that outlawing abortion would be un-American. It violates the principle of individual rights and freedoms.
| RevJP wrote: |
| Quote: | | certainly having the right to choose what to do with your own body is the most clear-cut case of when someone's freedom should be respected and protected. |
Two problems here: First, doing what you want with your own body is one thing, but the abortion debate is centered around somone doing something to someone else's body and until there can be an agreement on the status of the unborn, that debate will never be settled.
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If you were arguing about France or Japan or Span or Italy or any other civilized democracy, then I'd agree with you. But we're not; we're talking about America. You are underestimating your own country's greatness with respect to individual rights and freedoms.
| RevJP wrote: |
Second, our country, and yours has many laws prohibiting and limiting what one can do with their own body (ie; suicide) so putting abortion into that mix isn't all that unreasonable. |
Yes, laws against suicide are also un-American. Who is the government to tell you that you can't kill yourself?!? It should stay out of peoples' lives as much as possible. And this includes their bedrooms as well as their wombs.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Just to summarize, if you believe in freedom, you should believe in it PRECISELY for the acts that you find despicable. Even Hitler and Stalin supported freedom for actions that they agreed with.
Opposition to gay marriage and abortion are clearly un-American.
And obviously this does not generalize to criminal activities. You cannot use the above argument to try to justify murder or theft or anything that the VAST majority (> 99%) of the population agrees to be criminal.
Abortion and gay marriage do NOT fall in this category; firstly, there is a significant percentage of the population that supports abortion, and there is a significant percentage that supports gay marriage. But secondly, these things are also protected by a second American core-value, namely that the religious views of one group should not be imposed on another which disagrees with them.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6901
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Opposition to gay marriage and abortion are clearly un-American |
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This is funny, you speak of what is truely american and what is not and yet you are sitting there trying to say that someone exercising their freedom to think and feel the way they want about particular issues is 'un-american'. Do you truly NOT see the contradiction in your own arguments? 
Additionally, as Christians we are allied with God and His Word and His Will first and foremost, not the political or socio-economic philosophies of a nation. If America passed a law which denied ones freedom to express their religious beliefs where and how they want to (oh wait, it has... many times, in many ways...) anyway, we are bound to honor our Lord and worship as He desires not as 'america' chooses to allow. Is that unamerican? Probably so, but then again... who cares?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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