 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
|
 Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:39 am Post subject: |
 |
|
thunder wrote:
" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
FFT wrote:
The Lord is talking to Jeremiah, his prophet.
I am just glad that FFT is no longer an athiest!
" The Lord is talking to Jeremiah, his prophet." Well said FFT!
The LORD is talking to Jeremiah ( and to you as well, evidently )!
A " no " response to my question clearly indicates that some form of denial or a deft intent to be dishonest is active in the no respondants!
DITTO!
Truth is an ugly thing to unbelievers.
Thanks again !
thunder |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thunder wrote: |
" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 |
I still fail to see how this has anything to do with when my soul entered my body. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
P, if we humans had inexorable and undeniable scientific proof of your concern about when the unfertilized human egg becomes a living soul then, the matter would be moot.
That evidence does not exist and may never exist.
It does not take a genious, however, to see that conception creates a living being as, what was once a single egg becomes an embryo ( a living human organism ) in the instant that an egg is activated ( fertilized ).
In that instant, a new human life is initiated.
The person is alive, is very, very small, and yet lives until it dies, just like the rest of us.
Just because the embryo is small and unable to defend itself does not give adult people the right to put them to death, or, it shouldn't.
thunder |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gabbylittleangel
House Cat
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 173
Location: Florida
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: |
The Lord is talking to Jeremiah, his prophet... Does it say anything about anyone else? |
2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Scripture must be read in context, however, conditions must line up. For example, God treats wicked people differently than He treats His children. Other conditions apply as well. To everything there is a season.
Gabbylittleangel
P.S. I have a friend who jokes that whenever he comes across a Scripture that he does not like, he takes his Black Sharpie Marker and draws a line through it.
How do you decide which verses are meant for you? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 11:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thunder wrote: | P, if we humans had inexorable and undeniable scientific proof of your concern about when the unfertilized human egg becomes a living soul then, the matter would be moot.
That evidence does not exist and may never exist.
|
Well, look to the Bible, then. It says that Adam's soul entered his body when he took his first breath. This certainly raises the possibility that the same thing happens with us.
| thunder wrote: |
It does not take a genious, however, to see that conception creates a living being as, what was once a single egg becomes an embryo ( a living human organism ) in the instant that an egg is activated ( fertilized ). In that instant, a new human life is initiated.
|
Like I've said, none of that matters. The only thing that matters is when the soul enters the body.
| thunder wrote: |
The person is alive, is very, very small, and yet lives until it dies, just like the rest of us.
|
You can say the same thing about sperm cells.
| thunder wrote: |
Just because the embryo is small and unable to defend itself does not give adult people the right to put them to death, or, it shouldn't.
|
Chickens can't defend themselves, and Christians seem to have no qualms about putting them to death. Why is it ok to kill chickens and not humans?
The answer is that chickens do not have souls, but humans do. Killing is wrong only when you kill someone that has a soul. That is why the only thing that matters is when the soul enters the body.
Abortion is acceptable to Christians if and only if the fetus being aborted does not have a soul. There really is nothing more to be said on the subject. This simple sentence exactly cuts to the heart of the matter. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| thunder wrote: | | I am just glad that FFT is no longer an athiest! |
So I can't even speak in context any more, without you jumping all over it like it means that I believe in God?
| thunder wrote: | | A " no " response to my question clearly indicates that some form of denial or a deft intent to be dishonest is active in the no respondants! |
A "no" response implies a lack of formal logic skills. Your question was loaded, and therefore invalid.
| Gabbylittleangel wrote: | 2Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Scripture must be read in context, however, conditions must line up. For example, God treats wicked people differently than He treats His children. Other conditions apply as well. To everything there is a season. |
Psalms
137:8 O daughter Babylon, soon to be devastated!
How blessed will be the one who repays you
for what you dished out to us!
137:9 How blessed will be the one who grabs your babies
and smashes them on a rock!
Isaiah (talking about Babylon as well)
13:16 Their children will be smashed to pieces before their very eyes;
their houses will be looted
and their wives raped.
Hosea
13:16 Samaria will be held guilty,
because she rebelled against her God.
They will fall by the sword,
their infants will be dashed to the ground –
their pregnant women will be ripped open.
| Gabbylittleangel wrote: | P.S. I have a friend who jokes that whenever he comes across a Scripture that he does not like, he takes his Black Sharpie Marker and draws a line through it.
How do you decide which verses are meant for you? |
Seeing as I don't use it as a guide any more, I don't see any verses as "for me." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
thunder wrote:
P, if we humans had inexorable and undeniable scientific proof of your concern about when the unfertilized human egg becomes a living soul then, the matter would be moot.
That evidence does not exist and may never exist.
P replied:
Well, look to the Bible, then. It says that Adam's soul entered his body when he took his first breath. This certainly raises the possibility that the same thing happens with us.
thunder responds:
that's what I like about sceptics, they can talk them selves into anything.
Imagine a mind so deep that it compares a man to an embryo.
God made Adam from the very mud of the earth, blew the breath of life into his nostrils so that the man would begin to breathe on his own ( it sounds a lot like CPR huh! ) where as, an embyo is given life by a seed within a mothers womb being fertilized by a male sperm ( the active ingredient, genes, chromazones, etc. ).
The point is that the comparison is not realistic, i.e., the breath of God blown into the nostrils of a muddy corpse ( not yet living ) and a teeny, tiny egg being activated in the mothers womb.
I must admit that the breath of life in the mothers womb is exchanged from mother to embryo by way of the mothers blood / oxygen and birthing fluids ( kind of like a fishes gills ) for nine months.
PS ...
P said: " Well, look to the Bible, then. It says that Adam's soul entered his body when he took his first breath. This certainly raises the possibility that the same thing happens with us."
the soul of Adam was not given life when he first breathed for himself. His soul came to life when GOD blew life into Adam's nostrils.
Adam really had no choice in the matter. God breathed, God blew, mans soul became a living being by virtue of the design and fabrication ( creative ability ) of God.
Note: it's okay to try and comprehend the Bible as you read it, P.
FFT: you make me smile ( laughable ) when you speak, not realizing that everyone sees your denial of facts but you.
thunder |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| thunder wrote: |
that's what I like about sceptics, they can talk them selves into anything.
|
And one thing I like about religious people is that their complaints about skeptics ALMOST ALWAYS are more fitting when applied to themselves.
| thunder wrote: |
Imagine a mind so deep that it compares a man to an embryo.
|
This is just classic! What did I just say a few lines ago? Pro-lifers are the ones who compare embryos to men, women, children, babies, etc. ALL THE TIME!!! Your entire argument rests on the idea that a zygote should be considered to be a human!!!
| thunder wrote: |
FFT: you make me smile ( laughable ) when you speak, not realizing that everyone sees your denial of facts but you.
|
I don't see his denial of facts. (Does that make me a nobody? )  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you there absolutely no need for abortions. No rape, no physical repercussions to the mother or child, no abnormalities, there was a place for the child to live and be fed and and to grow up happy and healthy.
That there was absolutely no reason for a child to be disregarded...
then in your heart of hearts would you say, that to have an abortion for no other reason than that it was an inconvienence, would you agree and believe that it was ok?
Is it ok to destroy life because it is an inconvience to anyone?
I don't want to hear about the world is overpopulated, or somebody got raped, or due to the health, or poverty situations....
All these things aside...they don't exsist..the world is perfect...ok
is it ok to destroy life because it is an inconvience to anyone?
lone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lone-traveler wrote: | If you there absolutely no need for abortions. No rape, no physical repercussions to the mother or child, no abnormalities, there was a place for the child to live and be fed and and to grow up happy and healthy.
That there was absolutely no reason for a child to be disregarded...
then in your heart of hearts would you say, that to have an abortion for no other reason than that it was an inconvienence, would you agree and believe that it was ok?
Is it ok to destroy life because it is an inconvience to anyone?
I don't want to hear about the world is overpopulated, or somebody got raped, or due to the health, or poverty situations....
All these things aside...they don't exsist..the world is perfect...ok
is it ok to destroy life because it is an inconvience to anyone?
|
We destroy life all the time. We kill all sorts of animals, and we have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about killing people in other countries.
In fact, every time you drink a beer or sneeze, you're killing your own brain cells.
In the vast majority of cases, abortions are performed VERY early on in the pregnancy, and the fetus is tiny and only consists of few cells. I think that wanting to avoid the pain of child birth alone is a good enough reason to let a woman abort these few cells. She can always get pregnant again later if she wants.
On the other hand, if it is late in the pregnancy and the baby is practically old enough that if it were born, it would survive, then it doesn't sit well with me. However, it's the woman's body, and she should be able to do whatever she wants with it. The government should have absolutely no right to tell you what you can and can't do with your own body.
If men gave birth, there would be no restrictions on abortion whatsoever. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have to agree with you that the government should not be the ones to dictate whether one should or should not do whatever with their own bodies.
In China Abortion is mandated due to population problems. And for a government to tell it's people they can or cannot then this walks on the line with me of invasion of privacy.
However, with that said. I personally do not agree with abortion for any reason, and I do not feel that my tax dollars should be spent on something that I totally disagree with morally.
And the same could be said about our military. A lot of people do not believe in war for any reason, and don't feel that they should have to pay for it.
I on the other hand believe that the military is necessary for our own protection and do not have a problem with my tax dollars for this cause.
I don't think spending billions of dollars on space shuttles is necessary, when there are things that need attention right here on good ole mother earth.
But I don't agree with your assumption that if one chooses to have an abortion today, then they can have another pregnancy later. There is some cases where abortion can cause internal problems where one may never be able to have any children.
And besides the physical implications, there are also mental implications to be taken into account. Most women after having an abortion suffer some form of guilt, and some may or may not ever recover from that burden.
So I believe that if an individual is considering eliminating something due to an inconveinence, then they should be informed of both the physical and mental repercussions of such as act.
Many women later in life regret their decission, and they bear the guilt with them forever.
It's not a decission that should be taken lightly, yet many teens, because they fear what their parents may say or do, do not go to their parents and ask for support. They go to strangers who show them an easy way out from facing their worries today, but they don't tell them about the problems they will face tomorrow.
P,
I got pregnant when I was 13 years old. I was scared to death to tell my folks. They're old school you know, and I thought for sure they would disown me. They were mad alright, but they didn't kill me. My Mom took me to the doctor and we were informed that I was almost 4 months along.
Later my folks sat down with me and gave me the option of keeping the child, and in this they would support and take care of it, or I could give it up for adoption. At no time was abortion even an option.
When 9 months came along, I told my folks I wanted to keep it, and they agreed. My daughter today is 26 years old and I have a 3 year old grandson.
Due to the fact that I kept her, there were decissions that I made in my life, that if I hadn't I probably would be dead today. I got into some heavy drug days, and I was told I would never see my family again. That made me mad enough to turn myself around, throw away the drugs and the crowd I had gotten mixed up with, due to the fact that I could not keep going on if I could never see my daughter again.
Literally she saved my life, because I didn't throw hers away.
Sorry long post...
I'm just trying to explain why I feel the way I do. All life to me is precious. Life is a GIFT from God. And there are many people out there that are unable to have this gift. whether for physical reasons or financial reasons. I'm sorry for those who would truly Love to have a family, and have to sit by and watch millions of babies being thrown away in dumpsters and garbage bags each year.
The breaking of their hearts, breaks mine.
I can only imagine how angry that alone must make some people. Not to mention the careless attitude towards life itself, rewgardless of how insignificantly small it may appear at the time.
Life is Hope....and with throwing away Life comes throwing away Hope.
And sometimes people just can't get it back once they've just simply disregarded it.
anywhooo P,
that's me in a nutshell.
ya this is my life LOLOL...it's getting better everyday.. 
God Bless
lone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5901
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| thunder wrote: | | Imagine a mind so deep that it compares a man to an embryo. |
We can imagine until we die. Imagining something doesn't make it exist, ontological arguments aside.
| thunder wrote: | | FFT: you make me smile ( laughable ) when you speak, not realizing that everyone sees your denial of facts but you. |
You vomited out a loaded question, I called you on it, and I'm the one denying facts?
| P1234567890 wrote: | | In the vast majority of cases, abortions are performed VERY early on in the pregnancy, and the fetus is tiny and only consists of few cells. |
It's not even a fetus until the third trimester.
| lone-traveler wrote: | | In China Abortion is mandated due to population problems. And for a government to tell it's people they can or cannot then this walks on the line with me of invasion of privacy. |
China isn't really a shining beacon of freedom.
| lone-traveler wrote: | | Later my folks sat down with me and gave me the option of keeping the child, and in this they would support and take care of it, or I could give it up for adoption. At no time was abortion even an option. |
This is normal at four months and beyond. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
FFT,
If abortion had been an option at that time, neither my parents or I would have opted for it.
It's just not conceivable to me.
Never was.
I would have rather given her up for adoption, paid the consequeces of my family disowning me, then to place the blame on something else for my own faults.
Which really wasn't my fault, but then again it was.
I went out on New Years Eve..got drunk..passed out..and woke up in a strange place.. naked and alone.
I don't recall what happened, and I don't remember who I was with. But it was at that time that it happened.
So would you consider that rape? or drunken submission? I have no idea, but to blame an unborn innocent thing on my foolishness, that's not how I was raised.
Even at 13.
peace
lone |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| lone-traveler wrote: | FFT,
If abortion had been an option at that time, neither my parents or I would have opted for it.
It's just not conceivable to me.
Never was.
I would have rather given her up for adoption, paid the consequeces of my family disowning me, then to place the blame on something else for my own faults.
Which really wasn't my fault, but then again it was.
I went out on New Years Eve..got drunk..passed out..and woke up in a strange place.. naked and alone.
I don't recall what happened, and I don't remember who I was with. But it was at that time that it happened.
So would you consider that rape? or drunken submission? I have no idea, but to blame an unborn innocent thing on my foolishness, that's not how I was raised.
Even at 13.
peace
lone |
Lone, thank you for sharing your story with us. It is highly-relevant, and that must have been very tough for you, considering that you were so young and all the circumstances surrounding your pregnancy.
I'm not quite sure whether you think I'm going to argue with you or something like that. I'm not. I totally support every single decision you made. That is sort of the whole point of all my posts. It's your body, and nobody, least of all the government, should be able to tell you what to do with it. For you, keeping the baby was obviously the right thing, and I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. It's not like 'pro-choice' means 'pro-abortion'. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6791
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| lone-traveler wrote: | I have to agree with you that the government should not be the ones to dictate whether one should or should not do whatever with their own bodies.
In China Abortion is mandated due to population problems. And for a government to tell it's people they can or cannot then this walks on the line with me of invasion of privacy.
|
I think it's a lot worse than an invasion of privacy. But this is a bad example, since everyone agrees that the Chinese government is evil.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
However, with that said. I personally do not agree with abortion for any reason, and I do not feel that my tax dollars should be spent on something that I totally disagree with morally.
And the same could be said about our military. A lot of people do not believe in war for any reason, and don't feel that they should have to pay for it.
I on the other hand believe that the military is necessary for our own protection and do not have a problem with my tax dollars for this cause.
|
I happen to agree with you, but I'm not a Christian. If I were a Christian, then I would have a very hard time justifying this belief. Jesus made his views on violence and even self-defense VERY clear: violence is always wrong, in all situations.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
I don't think spending billions of dollars on space shuttles is necessary, when there are things that need attention right here on good ole mother earth.
|
I disagree. We should INCREASE science spending. Science and technology translate directly into making life right here on mother Earth better.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
But I don't agree with your assumption that if one chooses to have an abortion today, then they can have another pregnancy later. There is some cases where abortion can cause internal problems where one may never be able to have any children.
|
In what percentage of cases? I assert that this is only a tiny minority of abortions. Besides, if this is a concern for you, then you should want to have abortions be legal. If they were outlawed, then all sorts of women would be using coat hangers or going down to Mexico or whatever, and a whole lot more women would end up being infertile.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
And besides the physical implications, there are also mental implications to be taken into account. Most women after having an abortion suffer some form of guilt, and some may or may not ever recover from that burden.
|
Maybe, but most of that is just because the pro-lifers make them feel bad. I see pro-life propaganda trying to guilt women ALL THE TIME, and I live in Canada. I can only imagine what it's like in the U.S. Of course women are going to feel badly if everyone is telling them that they're evil all the time. If people were supportive of them rather than trying to make them feel bad, then they would feel a lot better about the hard decision they had to make. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
