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Nobby
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Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5146
Location: Missouri
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 Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| P wrote: | | Besides, nobody said that it is not a life. Just that it should not be considered a HUMAN life. |
What is it "P" a dog, a cat, maybe a horse or a cow!! Of coarse it's human! 
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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I agree Nobby, it's human alright, it's just not a person.
Fake
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Nobby
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Fake, Glad we got that straight! Well it's not chopped liver.....well not until they get done with the abortion!
Fake we'll never agree on this stages of a wonderful little baby, if it is left alone it will be another person just like you & I are persons, so why not give it a chance!  
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | P wrote: | | Besides, nobody said that it is not a life. Just that it should not be considered a HUMAN life. |
What is it "P" a dog, a cat, maybe a horse or a cow!! Of coarse it's human! |
It really all depends on when the soul enters the body. If it enters the body at conception, then it is a human. If it enters the body with the first breath, then it is not a human. It really is that simple.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | if it is left alone it will be another person just like you & I are persons, so why not give it a chance! |
I agree that it will become a person, but abortion really is a logical thing to do.
If a woman wants an abortion, then she can always have another baby later when she's actually in a position to be able to support / care for it.
What's better, a woman with a baby that she can't really support properly, or a woman with a baby that she can support properly?
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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" Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
It sounds like the maker of men and women is keenly aware of a human life even before the conception process, becomes activated in a mothers womb.
Not only is each life begun at conception but, from the position of God, even the calling of each person is known, yes, even decided by God before conception.
Is an unborn human child a human child before birth?
A " no " response to this question would clearly indicate that some form of denial or a deft intent to be dishonest is active.
Even a person who has zero belief in creation has to know that only varieties of human beings come forth during human birth sequences 100% of the time and that, an unborn human child that is tested to have heart, brain and physical movements before his or her birth, testefies to the " HUMAN LIFE " at work within the unborn baby.
" Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" Malachi 2:10
thunder
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Nobby
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Joined: 16 Sep 2002
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks thunder, good post. 
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
It sounds like the maker of men and women is keenly aware of a human life even before the conception process, becomes activated in a mothers womb. |
I've fielded this damned argument dozens of times already.
The Lord is talking to Jeremiah, his prophet. It is not at all a stretch to imagine that God chooses his prophets far in advance. Does the verse say anything about Jeremiah having a soul before his first breath? Does it say anything about anyone else?
| thunder wrote: | | Not only is each life begun at conception |
Nobody is arguing that it isn't. The question is whether the life is human yet.
| thunder wrote: | | from the position of God, even the calling of each person is known, yes, even decided by God before conception. |
But is it the calling of each person, or just prophets?
| thunder wrote: | Is an unborn human child a human child before birth?
A " no " response to this question would clearly indicate that some form of denial or a deft intent to be dishonest is active. |
Well-poisoning, not to mention question begging. A "no" answer would bely a lack of reading comprehension.
Of course an "unborn human child" is a "human child" before birth, you've assumed your answer in your question. The question is whether an unborn fetus is a human child. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5
It sounds like the maker of men and women is keenly aware of a human life even before the conception process, becomes activated in a mothers womb.
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Big deal; God is omniscient. No new news there. Of course He knew you and me and everyone else before we were born. That doesn't have a single thing to do with when the soul enters the body.
| thunder wrote: |
Not only is each life begun at conception but, from the position of God,
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Go ahead and quote the verse from the Bible that proves this.
| thunder wrote: |
Is an unborn human child a human child before birth?
A " no " response to this question would clearly indicate that some form of denial or a deft intent to be dishonest is active.
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Not at all. An unborn child is not even a human baby, let alone a human child. Where's the dishonesty?
| thunder wrote: |
Even a person who has zero belief in creation has to know that only varieties of human beings come forth during human birth sequences 100% of the time and that, an unborn human child that is tested to have heart, brain and physical movements before his or her birth, testefies to the " HUMAN LIFE " at work within the unborn baby.
" Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?" Malachi 2:10
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None of this matters one bit. The one and only thing that matters is when Christians believe the soul enters the body. Abortion is acceptable if and only if the fetus being aborted does not have a soul. It really is that simple. So let's stop talking about abortion, and start talking about when the soul enters the body.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: |
Even a person who has zero belief in creation has to know that only varieties of human beings come forth during human birth sequences 100% of the time and that, an unborn human child that is tested to have heart, brain and physical movements before his or her birth, testefies to the " HUMAN LIFE " at work within the unborn baby. |
As a Christian, brain, heart, etc. should be irrelevant to you. The only thing that matters is the soul.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5146
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | I've fielded this damned argument dozens of times already.
The Lord is talking to Jeremiah, his prophet. |
I believe that thunder knows that the Lord talking to Jeremiah His prophet. What makes think that He dosen't know us all. Do you know that for sure!
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Gabbylittleangel
House Cat
Joined: 02 Jul 2006
Posts: 173
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | thunder wrote: | | " Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." Jeremiah 1:5 |
The Lord is talking to Jeremiah, his prophet. It is not at all a stretch to imagine that God chooses his prophets far in advance. Does the verse say anything about Jeremiah having a soul before his first breath? Does it say anything about anyone else?
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Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:11 says something about everyone else. Jeremiah, known by God before he was formed, sanctified and ordained to be a prophet before he came forth out of the womb - -is no different from anyone else in the eyes of God.
It is interesting to note that when God was raising up Moses, the enemy of God set out to kill the children.
Exodus 1:16 And he said, When ye do the office of a midwife to the Hebrew women, and see them upon the stools; if it be a son, then ye shall kill him: but if it be a daughter, then she shall live.
And also when God was raising up Jesus, the enemy of God set out to kill the children.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men.
It makes me wonder who it is that God is raising up now. 
Gabbylittleangel |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | I believe that thunder knows that the Lord talking to Jeremiah His prophet. What makes think that He dosen't know us all. Do you know that for sure! |
Since when was it okay to add to the Word? If something isn't actually said in the text, isn't it pretty bad to say that it is?
By the way:
Jeremiah
1:4 The Lord said to me,
1:5 “Before I formed you in your mother’s womb I chose you.
Before you were born I set you apart.
I appointed you to be a prophet to the nations.”
| Gabbylittleangel wrote: | Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Romans 2:11 says something about everyone else. Jeremiah, known by God before he was formed, sanctified and ordained to be a prophet before he came forth out of the womb - -is no different from anyone else in the eyes of God. |
Uh. Firstly, that's a bit of a mistranslation. It's actually saying that God is impartial, referring to how he judges sin.
Further, Jeremiah is clearly more respected by God than other people:
Jeremiah
1:6 I answered, “Oh, Lord God, I really do not know how to speak well enough for that, for I am too young.”
1:7 The Lord said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am too young.’ But go to whomever I send you and say whatever I tell you.
1:8 Do not be afraid of those to whom I send you, for I will be with you to protect you,” says the Lord.
1:9 Then the Lord reached out his hand and touched my mouth and said to me, “I will most assuredly give you the words you are to speak for me.
1:10 Know for certain that17 I hereby give you the authority to announce to nations and kingdoms that they will be18 uprooted and torn down, destroyed and demolished, rebuilt and firmly planted.”
So no, that's not a good argument.
| Gabbylittleangel wrote: | And also when God was raising up Jesus, the enemy of God set out to kill the children.
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently enquired of the wise men. |
This never actually happened, sorry. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | It sounds like the maker of men and women is keenly aware of a human life even before the conception process, becomes activated in a mothers womb.
Not only is each life begun at conception but, from the position of God, even the calling of each person is known, yes, even decided by God before conception. |
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if your God know us all from before conception, wouldn't you think he'd know exactly who will be aborted and who wont?
If your God really cared about abortions, he'd never make a woman pregnant that he already know will have an abortion.
At least, that is what you were saying above. God doesn't care about abortions, because he let them happen even when he know the outcome of every pregnancy.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 5:02 am Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: |
If your God really cared about abortions, he'd never make a woman pregnant that he already know will have an abortion. |
Not only that, but God Himself aborts MOST of the pregnancies out there. Something like 70% of all pregnancies end in miscarriages. Clearly this is all the will of God.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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