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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1818
Location: Macau, China
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 Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 10:06 pm Post subject: I Finally Get It! |
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I finally get it. I just watched "Walking with Caveman" - a BBC documentary on the different hominid species that evolved before homo sapiens.
Even though I have these forums, I never really had it all in context before. I never studied biology or evolution in college or even high school (I was in an arts core in high school and college).
It makes so many things ridiculous to even debate. I really can't put it totally into words, still absorbing it. But it brings up many revelations in regards to religion and systems we have designed to make sense of the world around us.
We are not the only species, just the one that made it through.......mind blowing.
I understand now why evolution is such a blow to religion, and why it is feared and hated by some.
I highly recommend the "Walking with Cavemen" video - I got it off Netflix.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8335
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: Re: I Finally Get It! |
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| admin wrote: |
I understand now why evolution is such a blow to religion, and why it is feared and hated by some. |
It doesn't have to be that way; there are plenty of people who have no problem reconciling evolution with their faith. What's so wrong with evolution being the mechanism by which God created man?
As far as I can tell, there are two religious objections to evolution:
1. People who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible don't like it because it contradicts the literal word.
2. People think that it contradicts the central idea of us being 'special'.
Rebutting # 1 isn't really necessary. But for # 2 I think it is perfectly reasonable to both believe in evolution and believe that we're special. In fact, not too long ago, RevJP and I hammered out an interpretation of creation that was pretty sound scientifically.
Did they go into DNA evidence in the documentary you watched? In my opinion, that's where things get really interesting.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1818
Location: Macau, China
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: |
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They touched lightly on genes, but not DNA that I remember.
I agree with your statements. I am a Christian, but yet there is too much evidence and study done in evolution now to deny it reasonably. I very much enjoy the strides of science, and I also enjoy the sublime beauty of my faith.
That being said, I do not personally adhere to beliefs in biblical inerrancy. If I did, it would certainly cause me to hide from the proofs currently available....or possibly mental breakdown.
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: Re: I Finally Get It! |
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| admin wrote: |
...
We are not the only species, just the one that made it through.......mind blowing.
I understand now why evolution is such a blow to religion, and why it is feared and hated by some.
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I believe in religion and I found Walking with Cavemen hillarioiusly ridiculous. Now they claim that all these so-called fossils of Man were not intermediate species of Man but concurrent subspecies where all except one didn't make it.
I believe evolutionary scientists don't know what to believe and teach anymore - except to break into show business selling entertaining television.  |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:21 am Post subject: |
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| P123 wrote: | As far as I can tell, there are two religious objections to evolution:
1. People who believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible don't like it because it contradicts the literal word.
2. People think that it contradicts the central idea of us being 'special'. |
I think the true objection is in regards to the origin of life. Evolution has nothing that can adequately explain that origin -THAT is the main objection from religion.
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RevJP
Moderator
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | That being said, I do not personally adhere to beliefs in biblical inerrancy. |
Then why have the bible? Why call yourself a 'christian'? If you cannot faithfully trust the Word of God, then what have you?
I wonder what your definition of 'inerrancy' is that would cause you not to believe in it.
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | It doesn't have to be that way; there are plenty of people who have no problem reconciling evolution with their faith. What's so wrong with evolution being the mechanism by which God created man? |
Because it tends to make it clear that evolution is the mechanism by which man created God. Even penguins are superstitious.
| RevJP wrote: | | I think the true objection is in regards to the origin of life. Evolution has nothing that can adequately explain that origin -THAT is the main objection from religion. |
And as gets repeated over and over, evolution isn't about the origin of life. It's about what happened after the origin of life that led to the variation we see today. I agree that this seems to be the objection people tend to have, though.
Just because we can't perfectly replicate abiogenesis doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that God did it.
We couldn't replicate lightning for a really long time and blamed that on gods too.
| RevJP wrote: | | Then why have the bible? Why call yourself a 'christian'? If you cannot faithfully trust the Word of God, then what have you? |
This is kind of the way I feel as well. Studies have shown that the extremes of religion (atheism vs. inerrancy [the people that actually dance with snakes were used as an example]) suffer the least stress, whereas moderates tend to have it in spades.
It makes sense for people to be wholly acceptant of their religion.
It makes sense for people to reject religion entirely.
It doesn't make sense to sit on the fence. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8335
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: I Finally Get It! |
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| Ryck wrote: |
I believe evolutionary scientists don't know what to believe and teach anymore - except to break into show business selling entertaining television. |
Go sit in on a university biology class some time; you'll find that evolutionary biologists have plenty to teach...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8335
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:25 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
It makes sense for people to be wholly acceptant of their religion.
It makes sense for people to reject religion entirely.
It doesn't make sense to sit on the fence. |
This is one of those rare times where I actually disagree with FFT. I don't think there is anything wrong with Admin's position.
It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, yet imperfect. After all, it was written down and copied and printed by men, who mess things up ALL THE TIME. It makes sense to think that the Bible is mostly right, and certainly that its moral messages are good, even if some of the details are off.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8335
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | They touched lightly on genes, but not DNA that I remember. |
That's really too bad, because by far the strongest arguments in favor of evolution are all of the ones based on DNA evidence and other related issues such as atavisms. Someone really should do a documentary just on this sub-topic.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, yet imperfect. After all, it was written down and copied and printed by men, who mess things up ALL THE TIME. It makes sense to think that the Bible is mostly right, and certainly that its moral messages are good, even if some of the details are off. |
Yes, but what good is God if he can send people throughout history messages, but can't even keep translators on the right track? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8335
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | It is perfectly reasonable to believe that the Bible is divinely inspired, yet imperfect. After all, it was written down and copied and printed by men, who mess things up ALL THE TIME. It makes sense to think that the Bible is mostly right, and certainly that its moral messages are good, even if some of the details are off. |
Yes, but what good is God if he can send people throughout history messages, but can't even keep translators on the right track? |
Who knows; God works in mysterious ways. 
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: Re: I Finally Get It! |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ryck wrote: |
I believe evolutionary scientists don't know what to believe and teach anymore - except to break into show business selling entertaining television. |
Go sit in on a university biology class some time; you'll find that evolutionary biologists have plenty to teach... |
I have. They may have plenty to say but "teach" is debatable, especially when they are not sure themselves. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, but what good is God if he can send people throughout history messages, but can't even keep translators on the right track? |
This is one of the rare times when I agree with FFT.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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