Does Israel have a future? long read

golfjack · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: reply

HuH??????????????????????????????.

May God bless, Golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 4:13 am Post subject:

can you perhaps be more specific, as I am happy to continue in the study of the word of truth on any of these subjects?

golfjack · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: reply

For starters, give me your position that supports that there is no rapture. Do you think we are now going through the great tribulation? I noticed in another post, you subscribe to AA Allen, who I believe was part of the Pentacostal movement. I believe He was a Holiness Pentacostal preacher. I am a Charismatic Pentacostal, but don't really approve of Holiness Pentacostals, as they give the Charismatic Pentacostal, Word of Faith movement a bad name. This should be good enough for a start.

May God bless, golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 11:04 am Post subject:

I don't know who AA Allen might be.

I am a Bible Student.

Rapture. There is not found this word in the Bible. Therefore the oness is on showing where God tells us His understanding of this. His understanding by providing the believer with all the doctrine, the hope and calling to it, the reward it speaks, just, just all of those glorious doctrines which should be ever present if indeed that is God's understanding.

Rapture. The concept is so absent from the Bible that not even the word can be found once. How many advents does the Bible provide? A second, then a third, or even a forth advent is presented by different rapturists. People speak of this word as if it is a good and holy thing, yet there is no doctrine to explain it. Only a few verses taken out of all context, ignoring all context, and man's interpretation. God gives us His interpretation. That is what the Bible is. And Ez. 13 God has some specifics regarding His interpretation of those who would teach His children this.

Did you bother to read Ez 13? Please don't omit that one from your studies if you believe in the teachings stemming from that word, for i dare not repeat it without the foundational linguistics from which it is derived.

During Acts, each of the NT writers were inspired to write that they expected the return of the Lord in their lifetimes. They never speak about them being removed from the earth before this would occur. In fact, it is expressely stated that the dead shall rise first. That pretty much precludes anyone that is alive and remains to be risen before all the dead.

It is not all that simple, even though it is. There are additional factors, such as the hope looked for as revealed in the Prison Epistles never being to look for the return of the Lord, rather than using the word coming, parousia, the word used is epiphaneia (i mis spelled this before), or being manifested in the heavens with Christ when He manifest.

Being manifest with the Lord in the superheavenlies where He now has risin is the hope given to the church in the Prison Epistles, yet to be revealed to those of the Acts period, for at that time they preached the 'at hand' kingdom and the Lord coming as they had seen Him go.

Two different groups are being spoken to. Each of them are given different words to discribe their different hopes and callings. Each hope and calling is also associated with the word adoption.

Looking up any, or all of these words, coming (parousia), appearing (epiphaneia), adoption, calling, and hope will show that there are three spheres of blessings, each with it's own peculiar presentation.

The churches of today are often founded upon tradition, and the very thing that we are warned not to trust in, the flesh.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; And that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6.

In John 3:6, we have the teaching of the Lord Jesus on a fundamental doctrine.

It states an eternal truth. It declares that, by nature, we are descended from fallen Adam; are begotten in his likeness (Gen. 5:3); and are partakers of his fallen nature. Born of the flesh, we possess the nature of the begetter, and are flesh. This flesh, "the teaching of Jesus" declares, "profiteth nothing" (John 6.63); and in it "dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18), but this is the teaching which man will not receive...

If the flesh of itself "profiteth nothing", then it is clear that we cannot worship God with any of the senses (which all pertain to the flesh). We cannot worship with our eyes by gazing at a sacrament. We cannot worship with our noses by the smelling of incense. We cannot worship with our ears by listening to music; no, nor can we worship with our throats by singing or making great and marvelous oration and syllable.

All that comes from the flesh "profiteth nothing". God has "no respect to it", and it is labour in vain.

Churches and, what with choirs 1,000 strong, and string bands, solos, and choruses, and anthems, and the new Gospel of Song, we have come upon a time when the "flesh" seems to hold universal sway in what still retains the name of worship.

But alas for it all! it "profiteth nothing".

The one great object then?

That I may know Him.

golfjack · Posted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: reply

I have read Ezekiel 13. I am not a prophet for one think. You are implying that I am a false teacher, and if you are, there is no need to discuss further. Further more, Your belief on the New Birth or being born again is not correct, and If you don't want to praise and worship at church, then do so. I will always praise my Jesus.

May God bless, golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 4:27 am Post subject: Re: reply

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 6:23 am Post subject:

Jesus worshipped in the flesh and in the spirit.
He asked God to bless the food..both physically and spiritually.
He sang a song..from his heart with his mouth.
He prayed...in his spirit and out loud.
Don't know if he danced but he sure walked on water...same thing?

He demonstrated how it is not worshipping in one or the other but both.

The Body without the Spirit profits nothing.
The Spirit without the Body is unfruitful.

But when the Body and the Spirit are combined it becomes Whole and complete.

Either one alone is a dead work...shown in the examples of the Sadducees and the Pharisees...
One side all physical worship, and the other all spiritual worship. Each one fighting against eachother rather than coming together and learning from eachother, that truth is in life, and life is created with both Physical and Spiritual.

You can't have one without the other.

God and Man sitting in a tree
K.I.S.S.I.N.G
First comes Love...Mind
Then comes marriage...Body
then comes baby in the baby carriage....Soul.

First is Christ..the Head.
second comes the body...the church.
And when both are united at the marriage supper they become a New Kingdom of God.

Nursery rhymes...who would have guessed...that out of the mouths of babes should have been taken literally... Very Happy

you see..
Jack and Jill went up the hill
to fetch a pail of water.
And Jack fell down and broke his crown
and Jill came tumbling after.

When God was reprimanding Adam and Eve in the garden..who got spoken to first?

Gen 3:9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where [art] thou?
Gen 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I [was] naked; and I hid myself.
Gen 3:11 And he said, Who told thee that thou [wast] naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest [to be] with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What [is] this [that] thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

So who or what does the serpent represent in the nursery rhyme above?

Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

could be the water got dried up huh?? The pail that spilled out. ate dirt.

God is Awesome..!!

golfjack · Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject: reply

Who is the person who wrote some kind of book that you listed as the author of a sermon in your ptrevious post?

The New Birth is commonly called the born again experience. So, what is this new birth? The New Birth is the rebirth of the human spirit. John 3:4, 6 confirms this. The real man is spirit, which Paul said he was. The spirit operates through the soul (man's intellect, emotions, and will). And the soul in turn operates through the physical body. Now, the man (who is spirit) and his soul live in a physical body. At physical death, the man and his soul leave the physical body and go to their eternal home. Now to understand this concept of the spirit and soul, read Luke 16:19-24 the experience of the rich man and Lazarus. If one understands that we are spirit, soul, and body (1 Thess:5:23) he may understand more of what the Bible has to say. Jesus, certainly did not die on a cross to save our flesh, as I think you are saying.

May God bless, golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: reply

epouraniois · Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject:

lone-traveler,

I love your zealousness in the Lord. I too have a love for the truth and seek it in His understanding.

Hebrew is, quite literally, picture words. They tell a story for children so that when they grow up they will have been instructed in truth, and have the readiness to acknowledge it. This truth was written to and for Israel up until the end of Acts.

Just as all the names told of the future of that nation, so do all life events speak of something more true, something which originates from before time and extends beyond it's limits wherein there shall be time no more.

Everything, even now, is a figure of that which is to come, for the Lord has always been instructing some people in the differences by the flesh:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

To the Hebrews:

Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Heb 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Peter was still able to tell his kinsmen:
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

After Israel is set aside the heavenly places where Christ sitteth is revealed to another adopted family:

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Peter never spoke about living in heavenly places, in fact it was never written that God had a future family in heaven till the Prison Epistles.

Shall He not have this family? And is this family not called to be a full grown man?

It is the city which is likened unto a bride, not the church. The church, it is written, appears with Christ when He appears. The Jews, it is written, shall see Him coming as He left.

I believe both of these things are true for the people they are written to, but seperate and therefore must be rightly divided.

If you can share a verse stating the church, revealed in the letter where Paul is a prisoner for the hope of gentiles, revealed to be His body connected to the Head, then let us do look at them closely with one another and examine whether the words state these are the same companies or different.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject:

how about

Colossians Chapter 2.

epouraniois · Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:18 pm Post subject:

Please forgive me for getting sidetracked, resulting in abject failure to respond with you golfjack.

I think I'll post a study on this shortly because John 3 renders the word spirit as wind, but the word again is wrong. The actual word they translated from is above. One must be born from above.

1Sa 10:6 And the Spirit of the LORD will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Please note that the man adam became a living soul. he was not given a soul. The soul is in the blood:

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

epouraniois · Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject:

epouraniois · Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:10 am Post subject:

ok, so it appears to me that we are in agreement that Israel does in fact have a future fulfillment in the plan of God. Israel is to be a blessing as the chosen channel to the nations.

And this brings us to the point of the thread.

Being that Israel does have this future, and there remains the fulfillment for them to (awaiting their repentance) initiate their still future commission of Mat. 28 :

Mat 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

ARE WE REALLY GRAPHED INTO THE TREE THAT WAS HEWN DOWN?

ARE WE REALLY AWAITING ISRAEL'S REPENTANCE SO WE CAN BE BLESSED BY HER?

OR WAS THE SALVATION OF GOD SENT TO THE GENTILES AFTER THE PRONOUNCMENT OF ISRAEL'S UNREPENTANT HEART AND JUDICIAL BLINDNESS AT THE END OF ACTS?

Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)

Eph 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eph 3:12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.

Just as Israel is to be a blessing to the nations in the future, the above verse 10 shows that the church is now to be a blessing to the very powers and principalities (authorities & aristocracy) in heaven, showing something of the manifold wisdom of God, that God had hid this great secret church body until it was revealed after Acts, in this very Epistle

We can find our worthy walk, serving not the god of this world, but:

Eph 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation (calling) wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart

And it is this which constitues the practice which the member of the one body will be found working out. It is this which the Lord has worked in,

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him MUST worship him in spirit and in truth.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ

Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God

Eph 4:3 Endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Again, I put forth the question to all readers, what is the hope of your calling? Where is it written?