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admin
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Joined: 28 Sep 2000
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 Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 8:55 pm Post subject: Misunderstanding of Founding Fathers' Intentions |
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Welcome to our new Separation of Church and State forum!
I'll kick things off.
I had a friend tell me once (conservative, Calvary Chapel) that they were very tired of people twisting the Separation of Church and State provisions by the founding fathers. My friend said that the separation of church and state was just to prevent the government from declaring a state church, like England had done at the time of the US Constitution.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun May 28, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Misunderstanding of Founding Fathers' Intentions |
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| admin wrote: |
I had a friend tell me once (conservative, Calvary Chapel) that they were very tired of people twisting the Separation of Church and State provisions by the founding fathers. My friend said that the separation of church and state was just to prevent the government from declaring a state church, like England had done at the time of the US Constitution. |
I think the founding fathers had more on their minds than this. They were pretty bright guys; their motivation couldn't have been so simplistic.
Did your buddy give you any references or quotes from the founding fathers backing this up?
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ChristineS
Pit Bull
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 357
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: |
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I am of the considered opinion that Church and Government should have nothing to do with each other. They don't belong together. Jesus did not get involved with The Roman empire in the slightest, outside of telling his people to pay taxes. (Pay to Caeser what belongs to Caeser, etc).
I vote, I pay my taxes, I even pray for my Gov't (they need it!!!) but I don't combine Religion with Politics at all. 
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon May 29, 2006 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Misunderstanding of Founding Fathers' Intentions |
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| admin wrote: | | I had a friend tell me once (conservative, Calvary Chapel) that they were very tired of people twisting the Separation of Church and State provisions by the founding fathers. My friend said that the separation of church and state was just to prevent the government from declaring a state church, like England had done at the time of the US Constitution. |
Appparently the Legal Information Institute has similar thoughts to those of your friend.
| The LII wrote: | | Two clauses in the First Amendment guarantee freedom of religion. The establishment clause prohibits the government from passing legislation to establish an official religion or preferring one religion over another. It enforces the "separation of church and state. |
I think the first sentence leads them to this conclusion.
| The First Amendment wrote: | | Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. |
| P1234567890 wrote: | | I think the founding fathers had more on their minds than this. |
I agree; the rest of the amendment demonstrates this.
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bwokg
Tadpole
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: seperation of church and state |
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| Satan enters in to everything he can to pervert(twist out of designed shape in greek) every good thing. The best lies are twisted truth. The seperation clause is not a seperation designed to keep God out of government, on the contrary, it was to keep the governments nose out of the worship practices of the people. Now the people are being told where and when thy may express their faith which is the antithisis of the intent of the language. Now political correctness has people wondering if they are offending their co-workers or neighbors by even the mention of God as a real entity. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...or abridging the freedom of speach. How well has satan twisted the intent of such a straight forward statement. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| bwokg wrote: | | Satan enters in to everything he can to pervert(twist out of designed shape in greek) every good thing. The best lies are twisted truth. The seperation clause is not a seperation designed to keep God out of government, on the contrary, it was to keep the governments nose out of the worship practices of the people. Now the people are being told where and when thy may express their faith which is the antithisis of the intent of the language. Now political correctness has people wondering if they are offending their co-workers or neighbors by even the mention of God as a real entity. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...or abridging the freedom of speach. How well has satan twisted the intent of such a straight forward statement. |
And never has there been a case where a man was prosecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT for offending his co-workers with his religious views. There may have been cases of people being fired for this, but that was the guy's employer, not the government. And they may or may not be justified in doing so.
Sometimes people create a hostile work environment and should be fired. Other times, employers fire employees for their religious beliefs. The former is ok, and the latter is not. Obviously both of these things happen.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | And never has there been a case where a man was prosecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT for offending his co-workers with his religious views. |
P, are you going to stick with the absoluteness of this statement?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| Flashman wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | And never has there been a case where a man was prosecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT for offending his co-workers with his religious views. |
P, are you going to stick with the absoluteness of this statement? |
I want to say yes, since I would find the alternative to be outrageous, but something about the way in which you ask this question makes me nervous...
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | And never has there been a case where a man was prosecuted BY THE GOVERNMENT for offending his co-workers with his religious views. |
P, are you going to stick with the absoluteness of this statement? |
I want to say yes, since I would find the alternative to be outrageous, but something about the way in which you ask this question makes me nervous... |
I'm specifically referring the the word "never". With all the governments in all the world, I'm thinking there probably has been an instance. I get your vein here, but I've seen you and others hang people by the same thread, so I just want to make sure that you are ready for an eventual case which may, or may not, arise.
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| ChristineS wrote: | | I am of the considered opinion that Church and Government should have nothing to do with each other. They don't belong together. |
That is exactly why the Constutition worded it beginning, "Congress shall make no law..."
We (the people) limited the government's role in our private lives. The Church Of England was the "official" state church back then. If you didn't belong to that church then you couldn't hold certain privileged positions, you weren't really going to "church". You were considered heathen.
I'm going off memories and paraphrasing. It won't take much brushing up to get back on solid rock again if need be.
But, bottom line is that the Supeme Court of the United States has no business even ruling on the issue, since there is supposed to be "...no law...". These cases involving "religion" need to be kicked back to lower courts for final determination - or even better, left alone and not adjudicated at all.
In 1947, in the case Everson v. Board of Education, the Supreme Court declared, “The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state. That wall must be kept high and impregnable. We could not approve the slightest breach.” The “separation of church and state” phrase which they invoked, and which has today become so familiar, was taken from an exchange of letters between President Thomas Jefferson and the Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, shortly after Jefferson became President. From: Great Link
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bwokg
Tadpole
Joined: 04 Mar 2005
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I never siad anyone was ever prosicuted by the government for offering religeous views! I was implying a chilling effect people expierence due to the climate of political correctness, namely people protesting simple things like the words 'under God' in the pledge. Anyone who 'feels' offended can make a stink and cause the chill satan wants (in more ways than one I'm sure). |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| Flashman wrote: |
I'm specifically referring the the word "never". With all the governments in all the world, I'm thinking there probably has been an instance. I get your vein here, but I've seen you and others hang people by the same thread, so I just want to make sure that you are ready for an eventual case which may, or may not, arise. |
Perhaps, but we're only talking about the American gov't, and P was speaking of past tense only.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| Ana wrote: | | Flashman wrote: |
I'm specifically referring the the word "never". With all the governments in all the world, I'm thinking there probably has been an instance. I get your vein here, but I've seen you and others hang people by the same thread, so I just want to make sure that you are ready for an eventual case which may, or may not, arise. |
Perhaps, but we're only talking about the American gov't, and P was speaking of past tense only. |
I guess P is too hoarse to speak for himself?
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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Church and State are only separated by an “idea” that the church or state are separate entities not populated by flesh and blood.
Since the belief in God Almighty is not a “religion” but a relationship, one cannot (and should not) separate themselves from their beliefs simply because they are elected into the “state”. The state is to reflect the people’s will and the “people” of that time were, by a very large margin, Christian. The erosion of the Christian moral code in this country is largely due to the idea that the state holds the shield against encroachment by a Christian electorate. The shield was meant to be in the hands of the people, to keep the “state” out of the affairs of those who worship. Ergo, “Congress shall make no law…”.
Since, at that time [of the Federalist Papers and Constitution promulgation and enactment] the citizens held all the power and the government only had what power the citizens granted them; the ONLY concern was that the “state” would attempt to empower one expression of God worship. Since the first day after the signing of the Constitution, God haters began to legalize the spirit of that great document and schemed to find a way to “get around” the wording. {Not only of the “religion” issue, but also of the lawful money issue, state’s rights, individual freedoms, etc.}
The insanity continues today.
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: seperation of church and state |
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| Flashman wrote: |
I'm specifically referring the the word "never". With all the governments in all the world, I'm thinking there probably has been an instance. I get your vein here, but I've seen you and others hang people by the same thread, so I just want to make sure that you are ready for an eventual case which may, or may not, arise. |
I'm not talking about all the governments on the planet; I'm just talking about the U.S. government. I find it very hard to believe that anyone could possibly be prosecuted as we described, since the case would immediately be dismissed on constitutional grounds.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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