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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | I'm so happy to see that you've finally conceded that God is a real being.
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Haven't we atheists here always admitted that we believe that God exists?
Sheesh... |
Not that I've noticed. |
For someone so put off by people taking his jests seriously ... wow. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | I'm so happy to see that you've finally conceded that God is a real being.
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Haven't we atheists here always admitted that we believe that God exists?
Sheesh... |
Not that I've noticed. |
For someone so put off by people taking his jests seriously ... wow. |
Get over it, right?
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Haven't we atheists here always admitted that we believe that God exists? |
 that's a contradiction in terms, the very name, atheist, itself, is a denial of God.
noun: a lack of belief in the existence of God or gods
noun: the doctrine or belief that there is no God
A more appropriate term for which you speak is agnostic, otherwise referred to as an undecided or a fence sitter
noun: a person who doubts truth of religion
adjective: uncertain of all claims to knowledge
Which is to say, it appears you've never really come to a definitive conclusion as to your beliefs. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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Here's another definition!
Sarcasm! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 25, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Haven't we atheists here always admitted that we believe that God exists? |
that's a contradiction in terms, the very name, atheist, itself, is a denial of God.
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Yes, I was kidding. That's why I sad 'Sheesh' at the end of my post.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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I wonder why people rush to murder unborn children?
Is there some kind of open disrespect for children, perhaps because they are so small and defenseless?
thunder
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | I wonder why people rush to murder unborn children?
Is there some kind of open disrespect for children, perhaps because they are so small and defenseless?
thunder |
Yes, thunder. At least in my case, I support a woman's right to abortion because I have no respect for children and becaues they are so small and defenseless.
This conjecture of yours shows considerable insight on your part.
*Sarcasm Alert*
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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I just talked to a friend of mine who is fluent in Hebrew (it is his first language). I asked him to translate Exodus 21:22, and he said that it is impossible to tell what the original Hebrew is saying. Anyone who is convinced that it says miscarriage doesn't know what they're talking about, and anyone who is convinced that it says premature birth doesn't know what they're talking about.
So it looks like I have to fall back on my weaker argument (although it's still a pretty strong one):
There is no scriptural basis for the pro-life movement.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Exodus 21:22 (New International Version) wrote: | | 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. |
"P", I wouldn't exactly call this abortion! 
2 men fighting & hit a pregnant woman & hurt her so bad she lost her baby. Not abortion in the sense your speaking of.
I guess it's good that I'm not the judge!
PS: At least this one had a husband! 
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Much Love Nobby
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri May 26, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | | I wonder why people rush to murder unborn children? |
Define murder.
| thunder wrote: | | Is there some kind of open disrespect for children, perhaps because they are so small and defenseless? |
Is a clump of cells a child? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 4:52 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Exodus 21:22 (New International Version) wrote: | | 22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. |
"P", I wouldn't exactly call this abortion!
2 men fighting & hit a pregnant woman & hurt her so bad she lost her baby. Not abortion in the sense your speaking of.
I guess it's good that I'm not the judge!
PS: At least this one had a husband! |
I agree; in any case it's a really strange rule to have around... You have to have two men fighting, and one of them accidentally hurts a pregnant woman. What are the chances of that happening?
The scenario of a man deliberately attacking a pregnant woman with no other man around is MUCH more likely. In fact, the MOST likely scenario is for a husband to beat his pregnant wife. So what happens then? The guy has to pay a fine to himself?!?
Don't blame me for the Bible's strangeness!
Nevertheless, it's the closest thing to abortion we can find in the Bible, and it is relevant because it seems to say something about the value of the life of a fetus. Just what it is that it's saying is the issue...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 6:41 am Post subject: |
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If the cells were allowed the decency of completing their growth potential, each would become a little boy or little girl child, of the human pursuation.
Maybe abortionists should seek ways to help the unborn children live on, be born and become viable citizens that constitute members of our fair society.
I use the term " fair " loosely, in this case.
Murder is murder FT, you know that!
thunder
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:29 am Post subject: |
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| thunder wrote: | If the cells were allowed the decency of completing their growth potential, each would become a little boy or little girl child, of the human pursuation.
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Nicely oversimplified. If the cells of some embryos that have terrible genetic defects are allowed to "complete their growth potential", they will be born and live out their miserable short lives in agony.
If the cells of yet other embryos that come from mothers who are drug or alcohol addicts are allowed to complete their growth potential, they will be born with significant nervous system damage, and will consequently never be able to live normal, productive lives.
If the cells of other embryos that come from mothers who are poor and trying to get an education or build a career (and therefore wants an abortion) are allowed to complete their growth potential, they will cause the mother to drop out of school or give up her career and continue to live in poverty, ensuring that the baby doesn't get access to the resources it deserves. It is much better to let her get the abortion if she wants one, build a life for herself, and THEN have a child that she actually can support.
| thunder wrote: |
Maybe abortionists should seek ways to help the unborn children live on, be born and become viable citizens that constitute members of our fair society.
I use the term " fair " loosely, in this case.
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You've got things backwards; countries which allow abortions are the fairest and most civilized ones on Earth. Give me one example of a civilized country that doesn't allow abortions.
| thunder wrote: |
Murder is murder FT, you know that!
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Yes, and murder is defined as killing a person who has a soul. The Bible doesn't say when ensoulment happens. There are good scriptural arguments to be made that ensoulment only happens when the first breath is taken.
Your (rather strong) pro-life views certainly are not supported by scripture. Something is Christian if and only if it is supported by the Bible. In other words, your strong pro-life views are not very Christian.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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P1234567890
Your aversion toward calling abortion a tool used to put down horribly degenerated fetus matter ( children ! ) is only applied a very tiny percentage of common abortions, and I am sure that you know that.
99% of all abortions are convenience based, pre-birth murders.
I have no certain argument concerning the 1% of abortions performed to save the mother, allow ( help ) a," horribly degenerated fetus," to not have to enter this world, for their sakes as it were.
Just because there is a substantial dollar amount and labor intensive concerns attached to welcoming the unborn child to enter our world with parents and family predisposed to their own selfish misgivings is no legitimate reason to disqualify a human life to enter our society.
Most, if not all unborn children deserve our care for their well being.
There are precious few unborn people who need to be considered for dismissal from remaining as a human life. Each are our responsibility.
thunder
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | I agree; in any case it's a really strange rule to have around... You have to have two men fighting, and one of them accidentally hurts a pregnant woman. What are the chances of that happening? |
Probably very good!  Maybe she was sleeping around with the other guy & the husband found out! Naturaly since they were fighting over her she would be right in the middle of it, so she got hit & lost here baby!! How's that does that make a believable story??
That in no way shape or form designates abortion! 
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Much Love Nobby
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