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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:01 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | yeah, I'm starting to see all the pedantic hair splitting and if we follow that sort of cowboyless logic Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit and for 9 months she carried nothing but a mindless parasite until it's nose popped out and *pooof!* God's spirit of life entered the little tyke and he became a human be in. |
According to the Bible, prophets clearly get special treatment. Why not God's son as well?
| Sky wrote: | | Does this mean God is not capable of having His breath of life enter in at conception? |
Fetuses don't breathe. If he does this, however, there are further implications, which I will go into next.
| Sky wrote: | | Would this also conclude the first breath of air IS God's breath o life? |
If you want to assert that souls exist, sure.
Have you thought about the stillborn? Should we conclude that these babies had souls, but God let them die anyway? Are you aware that the rate of miscarriage could be as high as 90% of all conceptions? Do each and every one of those have souls?
Is God therefore a mass murderer?
| Sky wrote: | | Does that mean the devil's lair is in L.A. 'cause all the good air is replaced by the devil's hellfire bristone smoke they call smog? |
What.
What does this have to do with anything?
| Sky wrote: | | does that mean there's no babies being born in San Francisco and Philadelphia cause they're dominated by homosexuals? Should we change Frisco and Philly's names to Sodom and Gomorrah? |
You're cracked. What on Earth are you going on about? What do these things have to do with the topic we're talking about? |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:07 am Post subject: |
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It does not say He breathed into Adam and he had a soul but that he became a soul. |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | According to the Bible, prophets clearly get special treatment. Why not God's son as well? |
Not necessarily.
And as to Jesus,
He was not just God's Son, He was God in the flesh.
He had to be born a regular ordinary fleshy human being with no special preferences in order for all the prophecies to be fulfilled. |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | If you want to assert that souls exist |
Every human being IS 'a' soul.
We do not have souls, we ARE souls. |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:17 am Post subject: |
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| Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 12:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | It does not say He breathed into Adam and he had a soul but that he became a soul. |
| Sky wrote: | | Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." |
The Hebrew term נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh, “being”) is often translated “soul,” but the word usually refers to the whole person. The phrase נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה (nefesh khayyah, “living being”) is used of both animals and human beings (see 1:20, 24, 30; 2:19). |
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Sky
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Sky wrote: | | It does not say He breathed into Adam and he had a soul but that he became a soul. |
| Sky wrote: | | Genesis 2:7, "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." |
The Hebrew term נֶפֶשׁ (nefesh, “being”) is often translated “soul,” but the word usually refers to the whole person. The phrase נֶפֶשׁ חַיַּה (nefesh khayyah, “living being”) is used of both animals and human beings (see 1:20, 24, 30; 2:19). |
mmmyeah, I mentioned that somewhere else here earlier this evening. My understanding is that when it speak of both man and animal it means as you've just stated, living being. In which case, it refers to all living creatures as the one thing that gives them all life is God's spirit (or breath) of life. When that departs the being is no longer a living being but a corpse or, dead body for without that 'spark' all there is the dust that over the years became a lot of reconstituted groceries. |
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Sky
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:19 am Post subject: |
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| My own thoughts on this are that while the mother is supplying all the food through the blood the baby is alive, as heartbeat, brainwaves, etc testify. There has been enough research such as mothers reading and talking to their unborn child and according to what was being read had a definite effect on the child's IQ and other factors later after it was born. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Okay, let me try to make it clearer for you.
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
This doesn't make any sense. Why would the "breath of life" constitute a soul?
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."
Oh, hey! Suddenly, it makes sense! The "breath of life" makes things "living beings."
No context-sensitive language required. Further, I'm pretty sure Hebrew doesn't do that.
| Sky wrote: | | My own thoughts on this are that while the mother is supplying all the food through the blood the baby is alive, as heartbeat, brainwaves, etc testify. |
And nobody is arguing against that.
The issue is whether this clump of cells is a person.
| Sky wrote: | | There has been enough research such as mothers reading and talking to their unborn child and according to what was being read had a definite effect on the child's IQ and other factors later after it was born. |
This proves that the cells are people how? |
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Sky
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| Despite what the pro-abortionist would like the law to be they cannot get around the fact that if one harms or kills the mother such that the unborn child dies the law goes for homicide on the child's behalf and if both die it becomes a double homicide. Odd thing is that the abortion folk don't just step over they run over to the pro-life side when this happens and holler murder just as loudly as the pro-lifers do. itmt, the law obviously sees the unborn as a person as well. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5859
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | Despite what the pro-abortionist would like the law to be they cannot get around the fact that if one harms or kills the mother such that the unborn child dies the law goes for homicide on the child's behalf and if both die it becomes a double homicide. Odd thing is that the abortion folk don't just step over they run over to the pro-life side when this happens and holler murder just as loudly as the pro-lifers do. |
You understand what "consent" is, right? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:54 am Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion |
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| Sky wrote: |
Nephesh (soul) is used of the lower animals four times before it is used of man; and out of the first thirteen times in Genesis, it is used ten times of the lower animals.
Now, then, the question becomes, if dust + God's breath of life = a living soul the bible would seem to indicate that this applies to both man and animal; both die and return to the dust, in man God's breath of life returns to God, so what is the force that gives animals their life if not God's breath of life? If it is, indeed, the same, as scripture would seem to say, that animals possess God's spirit of life then animals and dogs and cats do have a soul.
Do animals have memories, are they aware of their surroundings, do they know where to find their food bowl, do they know to protect you and alert you to things out of the ordinary, come to you when they have a need for effection, etc?
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It sounds to me like you believe that animals have souls... Is this correct?
| Sky wrote: |
Your entire argument, that man (and now, perhaps, animals, too) does not possess a soul until he is born appears to be a last ditch effort to hang onto both God and humanism's abortion at the same time*; but what does not compute is that those fetal cells you say have life are the same cells a grownup has with the only difference being a lot more groceries and time.
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I don't see the problem you're having with this. Our cells are alive. They are alive in the womb, and they are alive after birth. Our bodies are alive in the womb and after birth. Our bodies are just vessels, though. It's our souls that matter. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion |
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| Sky wrote: |
yeah, I'm starting to see all the pedantic hair splitting and if we follow that sort of cowboyless logic Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit and for 9 months she carried nothing but a mindless parasite until it's nose popped out and *pooof!* God's spirit of life entered the little tyke and he became a human be in.
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Pedantic hair splitting?!? You're the one who said that my arguments imply that a fetus is not alive! That sort of required me to clarify what I meant... and now you're trying to dismiss my arguments by calling them names? Come on...
| Sky wrote: |
Does this mean God is not capable of having His breath of life enter in at conception? Would this also conclude the first breath of air IS God's breath o life? Does that mean the devil's lair is in L.A. 'cause all the good air is replaced by the devil's hellfire bristone smoke they call smog? does that mean there's no babies being born in San Francisco and Philadelphia cause they're dominated by homosexuals? Should we change Frisco and Philly's names to Sodom and Gomorrah? |
I'm going to ignore your strange grudge against the cities of California and focus on your first sentence. You are trying to argue that since God COULD make a prophet's soul enter the body at conception, that that somehow shows that EVERYBODY'S soul enters the body at conception. Do you see the problem with this argument? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:04 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | If you want to assert that souls exist |
Every human being IS 'a' soul.
We do not have souls, we ARE souls. |
Sheesh; now who's splitting hairs?
We are made out of atoms. Are you saying that since we are souls, souls are partly made out of atoms? So when our souls go to heaven or hell, our atoms somehow go there as well?
You are using a highly-irregular definition of soul. The standard definition of a soul is that it is a spiritual entity that is not made out of matter. Souls can enter and leave our bodies. Our bodies and souls are clearly separate things. The bodies are not important; they are just vessels. Our souls are eternal. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 23, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | My own thoughts on this are that while the mother is supplying all the food through the blood the baby is alive, as heartbeat, brainwaves, etc testify. There has been enough research such as mothers reading and talking to their unborn child and according to what was being read had a definite effect on the child's IQ and other factors later after it was born. |
How many times are we going to have to tell you that we agree that fetuses are alive before you stop trying to argue with us that they're alive?
Nobody is saying that fetuses are not alive! We are saying that it is perfectly reasonable to believe that the Bible says souls enter the body at birth, and not at conception.
If you want to rebutt us, then find a passage which definitively shows that the soul enters the body at conception. Otherwise we can just keep going around in circles. |
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