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Jesus and abortion

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Sky
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Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: Jesus and abortion

Jesus was not born in December, He was born in September. However, 9 months earlier (December) would have been His date of conception. What does that say about abortion?

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

Sky wrote:

Jesus was not born in December, He was born in September. However, 9 months earlier (December) would have been His date of conception. What does that say about abortion?

I have no idea what you're trying to say. Your statements above have exactly no implications with respect to abortion.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093

Location: Memphis

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

Sky wrote:

Jesus was not born in December, He was born in September. However, 9 months earlier (December) would have been His date of conception. What does that say about abortion?

That he wasn't.

And nothing more.

Oh, I see what you're doing. He must have been conceived in December, and that's why we celebrate his birth in December? Sorry, no. The pagan festivals that were celebrated in late December are the reason we celebrate in December.

Also, the idea that Mary was impregnated by God kind of throws it all out of the window anyway.

Sky
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Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

FFT wrote:

Sky wrote:

Jesus was not born in December, He was born in September. However, 9 months earlier (December) would have been His date of conception. What does that say about abortion?

I think you have a typo there, He was conceived in Dece and born in Sept.

Not referring to pagan festivals (yes, pagans had holidays, solstice, etc, in dec).

Referring to a specific Jewish holiday in September that correlates with His Sept birth (and which, then, correlates to prophecy)

Sky
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Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

FFT wrote:

Also, the idea that Mary was impregnated by God kind of throws it all out of the window anyway.

not speaking to impregnation but conception. not the same thing.

Matthew 1:20, "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

Sky wrote:

FFT wrote:

Also, the idea that Mary was impregnated by God kind of throws it all out of the window anyway.

not speaking to impregnation but conception. not the same thing.

He got you there FFT! Because as we all know, immaculate impregnation is scientifically impossible, but immaculate conception is a well-documented phenomenon which has mountains of scientific evidence supporting it.

Sky, don't leave me hanging here... What does Jesus' birth say about abortion?!?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093

Location: Memphis

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

There's precedent for prophets and the like to be treated specially from conception, but not for us normies. The Jeremiah passage is often quoted by pro-lifers, but without the context which makes it plain that it refers only to Jeremiah, as he was a prophet.

Sky
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Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

P1234567890 wrote:

Sky, don't leave me hanging here... What does Jesus' birth say about abortion?!?

not the birth, but the conception. It has been stated here in other threads that the unborn are not alive until they are born. would you say that conceived and in the womb Jesus was not alive?

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

Sky wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Sky, don't leave me hanging here... What does Jesus' birth say about abortion?!?

not the birth, but the conception. It has been stated here in other threads that the unborn are not alive until they are born. would you say that conceived and in the womb Jesus was not alive?

I don't know what your point is supposed to be. Nobody ever said that the unborn are not alive until they are born. Every fetus is made of cells, and those cells are alive. The issue is whether or not they have a soul yet.

Would I say that Jesus was alive after being conceived? I agree that everyone is alive after being conceived. Did Jesus immediately receive His soul at the moment of conception? Who knows... Maybe He received His soul at birth, just like everyone else, and it was just the vessel we call His body that was immaculately conceived.

Or maybe His soul entered His body at the moment of conception, in which case I might be willing to concede that EVERY son of God might well be like this...

But in either case, I fail to see what this has to do with normal, everyday babies which are not God's son...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Sky
Booted

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

P1234567890 wrote:

Sky wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Sky, don't leave me hanging here... What does Jesus' birth say about abortion?!?

not the birth, but the conception. It has been stated here in other threads that the unborn are not alive until they are born. would you say that conceived and in the womb Jesus was not alive?

It takes dust and God's breath of life to make a soul, one without the other is an imcomplete soul aka an incomplete human being thus no human being just as one that has died is not a person but a corpse.

Sky
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Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

P1234567890 wrote:

Sky wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Sky, don't leave me hanging here... What does Jesus' birth say about abortion?!?

not the birth, but the conception. It has been stated here in other threads that the unborn are not alive until they are born. would you say that conceived and in the womb Jesus was not alive?

To continue. It would appear that you, at least, tacitly, acknowledge that Jesus, because of the Holy Spirit, was alive from conception forward.

The indwellment of the Holy Spirit is not the same as those being conceived with just God's breath of life. If it were then everyone would be endowed with the Holy Spirit at conception.

So there appears to be a conundrum in claiming cells are alive in the fetus but the fetus is not a living person until the moment of birth for either there is life resulting from dust + God's breath of life at conception or there is not in which case, by your reasoning, God's breath of life would have to be imparted to the individual at birth but if this were so then the child for the entire nine months was not alive, in essence, dead. Also, this does not answer premature births at any age prior to the full term. You see how the logic fails anyway one goes with it?

Now, back to Jesus, since it takes dust + God's breath of life to make a soul ie a human being and the scriptures affirm Jesus was a human being then He had to have had God's breath of life at conception at the same time the Holy Spirit conceived within Mary so, regardless of whether the Holy SPirit was there or not Jesus would have been alive at conception.

Those of us in Christ are essentially no different than Jesus at conception for we, too, have God's breath of life at birth and, also later, the addition of the Holy Spirit plus we have something else the unsaved do not have, for we are reborn, this time as a spirit that lives, grows and possesses memories within us. When we die, just as with the unsaved, our bodies return to dust and God's breath of life returns to God at the same time the Holy Spirit also returns to God. This, for those of us in Christ, leaves our spirit which sleeps until such time as Jesus calls to us and awakens us at the end time.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7633

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

Sky wrote:

To continue. It would appear that you, at least, tacitly, acknowledge that Jesus, because of the Holy Spirit, was alive from conception forward.

I don't even know what the Holy Spirit really is, so I certainly don't agree with this statement.

Sky wrote:

So there appears to be a conundrum in claiming cells are alive in the fetus but the fetus is not a living person until the moment of birth for either there is life resulting from dust + God's breath of life at conception or there is not in which case, by your reasoning, God's breath of life would have to be imparted to the individual at birth but if this were so then the child for the entire nine months was not alive, in essence, dead. Also, this does not answer premature births at any age prior to the full term. You see how the logic fails anyway one goes with it?

No, the logic doesn't fail at all. I am not arguing that a fetus is dead. I think that fetuses are alive, since they are made of living cells. I don't think anyone believes that a fetus is not alive.

Just to be clear, what I AM saying is that it is perfectly reasonable and consistent with scripture to believe that the fetus is simply a vessel (alive, yes, but still just a vessel) which the soul enters when the first breath is taken. It is certainly possible for something to be alive and not have a soul. According to Christians, dogs and cats are alive, but don't have souls. Is all of this clear?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Sky
Booted

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

P1234567890 wrote:

it is perfectly reasonable and consistent with scripture to believe that the fetus is simply a vessel (alive, yes, but still just a vessel) which the soul enters when the first breath is taken. It is certainly possible for something to be alive and not have a soul. According to Christians, dogs and cats are alive, but don't have souls. Is all of this clear?

P,

In the Hebrew, nephesh is translated into the English word, 'soul'.
In 7 instances nephesh is translated 'creature'
in 2 instances it is translated 'thing'
in 3 instances it is translated 'beast'.
in one instance it is translated 'fish'.

in 7 instances it is translated both 'man' and 'creature'

Nephesh (soul) is used of the lower animals four times before it is used of man; and out of the first thirteen times in Genesis, it is used ten times of the lower animals.

Now, then, the question becomes, if dust + God's breath of life = a living soul the bible would seem to indicate that this applies to both man and animal; both die and return to the dust, in man God's breath of life returns to God, so what is the force that gives animals their life if not God's breath of life? If it is, indeed, the same, as scripture would seem to say, that animals possess God's spirit of life then animals and dogs and cats do have a soul.

Do animals have memories, are they aware of their surroundings, do they know where to find their food bowl, do they know to protect you and alert you to things out of the ordinary, come to you when they have a need for effection, etc?

Your entire argument, that man (and now, perhaps, animals, too) does not possess a soul until he is born appears to be a last ditch effort to hang onto both God and humanism's abortion at the same time*; but what does not compute is that those fetal cells you say have life are the same cells a grownup has with the only difference being a lot more groceries and time.

The unsaved cannot know, in fact, it is impoosible for him know or even understand spiritual things and, if, by your statement, " don't even know what the Holy Spirit really is", then I submit that that is a great part, if not all, of your difficulty understanding things regarding spirit and soul and that, as a result, you are struggling trying to find human and physical referents to fit in place of those things spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Animal translations:
"creature" Gen. 1:21, 24; 2:19; 9:10, 12. Lev. 11:46.
"thing" Lev. 11:10. Ezek. 47:9.
"beast" Lev. 24:18.
"fish" Isa. 19:10.

Both animal and man translations:
"creature" Gen. 9:15, 16.
"the life" Lev. 17:11, 14.
"soul" Num. 31:28.

*It can't be done; at best it makes a man a hypocrite trying to serve two masters; at worst, in the end it kills him.

Best,
Sky

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6093

Location: Memphis

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

P1234567890 wrote:

Not quite: in the question of legality, the issue is whether they are people yet.

As I've pointed out to you before, Sky, no one is claiming that fetuses aren't alive.

Sky
Booted

Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354

Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Jesus and abortion

FFT wrote:

As I've pointed out to you before, Sky, no one is claiming that fetuses aren't alive.

yeah, I'm starting to see all the pedantic hair splitting and if we follow that sort of cowboyless logic Mary was conceived of the Holy Spirit and for 9 months she carried nothing but a mindless parasite until it's nose popped out and *pooof!* God's spirit of life entered the little tyke and he became a human be in. Does this mean God is not capable of having His breath of life enter in at conception? Would this also conclude the first breath of air IS God's breath o life? Does that mean the devil's lair is in L.A. 'cause all the good air is replaced by the devil's hellfire bristone smoke they call smog? does that mean there's no babies being born in San Francisco and Philadelphia cause they're dominated by homosexuals? Should we change Frisco and Philly's names to Sodom and Gomorrah?

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