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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1384
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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before the 20th century...and really, the 21st century premature birth death rate are incredibly high...infant mortality overall was high...so, I think P is closer to the "understanding" than yours Flash...
and I still fall back on the scripture (if true) that states that God knew me before I was born and "all the days of my life"...so, he know he will be born and who will be aborted....and doesn't intervene...
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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P,
...and you know I'll be the first to say that you could very well be right. As I stated earlier, there is no "commandment" like thou shall not abort a fetus. Or anything that says, "cut nothing from the mother's womb" or that sort of thing.
But what Christians believe is that, because we are all God's children, and the scriptures do make that clear; and because the scriptures do tell us that God knows us from before we are conceived; and that God does tell us not to "murder" or "kill" (whichever translation you prefer), then even logic would say that killing even a "potential" person should be avoided.
I, too would love to be able to read the ancient languages so that I would have first-hand readings. I just feel in my spirit that abortion is just not making God smile upon us.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
...and you know I'll be the first to say that you could very well be right. As I stated earlier, there is no "commandment" like thou shall not abort a fetus. Or anything that says, "cut nothing from the mother's womb" or that sort of thing.
But what Christians believe is that, because we are all God's children, and the scriptures do make that clear; and because the scriptures do tell us that God knows us from before we are conceived; and that God does tell us not to "murder" or "kill" (whichever translation you prefer), then even logic would say that killing even a "potential" person should be avoided.
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How about this: things happen in this order:
1. Conception happens, and the human body forms in the womb. It is just a vessel. It has no soul.
2. Ensoulment happens. The vessel now becomes a true human being.
3. We live and die. The soul leaves the body.
4. Now the body is just a vessel again.
We have no problem cremating a body, but this is just an act of destroying the vessel, very much like the act of aborting a fetus that has no soul is just an act of destroying the vessel. Anyone who is against abortion should also be against cremation.
That is, unless there is a good reason for believing that ensoulment happens at conception...
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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What is your definition of "soul" and "ensoulment"?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | What is your definition of "soul" and "ensoulment"? |
I don't know how to define soul; I mean exactly what the Bible means when it talks about our 'immortal souls'. As for ensoulment, it is the moment when the soul enters the body.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: |
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Ok. Your example earlier of Adam receiving a "soul" when God breathed life into him: When God created Adam he became a living soul. When God created me, I became a living soul. I was created at conception, Adam was created sans-conception.
It doesn't matter what life form my physical is in, without the soul I have no life. When God says He knew "someone" before they were even in their mother's womb, it's because He created their soul before He created their bodies - the soul lived before the body and after the body.
If Christians believe this, why can't they have standing in a pro-life belief system? Further, there are many moral non-Christians who also believe killing the unborn is wrong. So the idea that in order to be pro-life, there has to be a bible passage saying God thinks it's wrong, sort of makes the argument fuzzy anyway.
In the abortion issue, for clarity, I submit that the terms pro-life and pro-choice are misnomers anyway. The argument is pro-abortion and anti-abortion, if the one arguable topic is abortion.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:49 am Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | Ok. Your example earlier of Adam receiving a "soul" when God breathed life into him: When God created Adam he became a living soul. When God created me, I became a living soul. I was created at conception, Adam was created sans-conception.
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That's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that the soul enters the body with the air that first fills the lungs. God created Adam's body, and then breathed life into it. He similarly created your body, and then breathed life into it at birth. In both cases the vessel was created before ensoulment. Besides, your interpretation creates all sorts of problems with twins:
With identical twins, one sperm fertilizes one egg. According to you, the soul enters this one cell at this time. But now things get problematic. With identical twins, this one cell splits apart into two separated cells, and each one becomes a new human. So which one gets the soul? Does one of them keep the original soul, and the other just gets a copy of it? Do they both share the one soul? Does ensoulment happen independently for the second cell, even though conception is not happening again?
The idea of ensoulment at conception has all of these problems with it, not to mention that the Bible doesn't support it in any clear way.
| Flashman wrote: |
It doesn't matter what life form my physical is in, without the soul I have no life. |
Dogs and cats and ants and chickens all have cells, but you don't believe that they have souls.
| Flashman wrote: |
If Christians believe this, why can't they have standing in a pro-life belief system? |
People can believe whatever they want. That is not the issue here. The issue is whether or not what they believe is consistent with the Bible, and whether or not STRONG pro-life beliefs are justified by the (at best) VERY UNCLEAR statements in the Bible. I claim that there is no scriptural basis for being pro-life.
| Flashman wrote: |
Further, there are many moral non-Christians who also believe killing the unborn is wrong. So the idea that in order to be pro-life, there has to be a bible passage saying God thinks it's wrong, sort of makes the argument fuzzy anyway.
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Not really. The VAST majority of pro-lifers in the U.S. are Christians. But even if you're right and there are millions of them, it doesn't matter. If anything, this proves my point even more: that pro-life morality does NOT come from the Bible.
| Flashman wrote: |
In the abortion issue, for clarity, I submit that the terms pro-life and pro-choice are misnomers anyway. The argument is pro-abortion and anti-abortion, if the one arguable topic is abortion. |
Yeah, but you have to be careful, because if you call someone pro-abortion, it makes it sound like the person wants all women to have abortions. The issue also becomes more complicated since there are many religious people who are against contraception.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | That's one way of looking at it. The other way of looking at it is that the soul enters the body with the air that first fills the lungs. God created Adam's body, and then breathed life into it. He similarly created your body, and then breathed life into it at birth. In both cases the vessel was created before ensoulment. |
This gains validity when you see that "soul" and "breath" are from the same word in Greek, and that (as I understand it) there's no distinction between the two in the Hebrew.
Also, your twin example is excellent. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
Also, your twin example is excellent. |
Thank you!
Read my other thread in the abortion forum; I think it pretty much conclusively shows that ensoulment must happen when the first breath is taken.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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About that....
You've assumed something that is not in scripture.... You really should slow down and do a little research before you say you conclusively proved something, Thus far your 'proof' is poorly educated opinion.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | About that....
You've assumed something that is not in scripture.... You really should slow down and do a little research before you say you conclusively proved something, Thus far your 'proof' is poorly educated opinion. |
This goes both ways, sir. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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Rev,
I, for one, enjoy reading your posts. I've never gone away from a session feeling that you've misrepresented Christ. Keep it up.
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | This gains validity when you see that "soul" and "breath" are from the same word in Greek, and that (as I understand it) there's no distinction between the two in the Hebrew. |
I'm not disagreeing with you on this, FFT, just wanting to expound on this a bit for it would appear that we can't use quite such a blanket generalization.
Neshamah (breath) occurs 25 times in the OT; of which, only two are rendered spirit.
Nephesh occurs 754 times in the OT; 472 times it is translated soul; 282 times it is represented by 44 different words or phrases; in 53 places the word is nephesh; in 229 places there apparently is no rendering. In all places the English word soul has been used except Job 30:15 and Isaiah 57:16. So, except for these two places the English soul always represents the Hebrew Nephesh but nephesh is not always translated soul. So, each instance must be verified as to what the author meant.
Ruach occurs in the OT 389 times in the AV and is rendered spirit in 237 instances; no other word is translated spirit except Neshamah in the instances given above. In the remaining 152 places it is translated 22 different ways and must be determined on a per verse basis. In the RV it is translated spirit 224 times and in the remainig 165 psasages in translated many different ways and can be determined only by the specific usage. The main idea runing through all is "invisible force" and as this may be exerted in many forms must likewise be determined on a case by case basis. Except for its manifestations ruach always represents that which is invisible. As coming from God it represents origin of life, it comes from God and returns to God. Other uses, also with numnerous references within each category, are, the Holy SPirit, divinely manifested power, power fro on high, giving spiritual gifts, the psychological part of man, characteristics of man manfesting themselves in states of mind and feeing, invisible spirit beings and manifetations of the atmosphere.
Psuche is the only word translated soul in the NT and occurs 105 times and is translated soul 58 times, life 40 times, mind 3 times and heart, heartily, us and you once each. Each instance must be determined. Psuche corresponds exactly to the Hebrew Nephesh thus psuche represents Nephesh in the OT. Psuche is used of animals twice (life and soul), of man as a soul, of the life in man that can diem be lost, saved, etc; as a pronoun as in my soul or myself; to express one's powers as in soul, heart, mind, heartily, etc.
Pneuma is spirit in the NT and corresponds with the Hebrew ruach and occurs 385 times in the Received Greek Text and are rendered Spirit, spirit, spiritual, ghost, life, wind, and spirituality. With 'hagio" (Holy) as in Holy SPirit and Holy Ghost. Pneuma is given twice as an alternate for spirit and once for life; 'of the spirit' as an alternative for spirituality; and spirit as an alternate for spiritual. Usages are, God is pneuma (not A spirit as there is no definite article in Greek. Christ, the pneuma of Christ, the Holy SPirit usually eith the article, denoting the Giver as distinct from His gifts; operations of the Holy Spirit in the bestowal of spiritual gifts; the new nature of the believer; man with psychological references, pneuma imparted top man making him a living psuche (soul); character manifested in one's actions; feelings, desires, that which is supernatural, angels and spirit beings, demons, evil spirits, the Resurrection Body.
Pneuma hagion = holy spirit, this usage (without Articles) occurs 52 times in the N.T., and is always wrongly rendered "the Holy Spirit" (with the definite Article, and capital letters). Consequently there is no stronger rendering available when there are two Articles present in the Greek (to pneuma to hagion), which means "the Spirit the Holy [Spirit]". Hence, the English reader can never tell which of the two very different Greek expressions he is reading.
Pneuma hagion (without Articles) is never used of the Giver (the Holy Spirit), but only and always of His gift. What this gift is may be seen by comparing Acts 1:4, 5 with Luke 24:49, where "the promise of the Father" is called {in the former passage) pneuma hagion, and in the latter is called "power from on high". This "power from on high" includes whatever gifts the Holy Spirit may bestow "according to His own will". What particular gift is meant is sometimes stated, e.g. "faith", "power", &c. This will be found to be the case in every one of the 52 occurrences. See Acts 2:4 (the first occurrence subsequent to Acts 1:4, 5), where we read "they were all filled (*3) with pneuma hagion, and began to speak with other tongues, as THE Spirit gave". Here the Giver and His gift are strictly distinguished. |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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The before mentioned," eye of the needle," statement was a street term referring to when an Israelite township or village closed and locked the entrance / exit gate. Only a very small side door was available for people to leave thru or to enter into the then sealed community.
When somone poorly planned their travel to move in or out of the camp in the evening after the gates were closed, or in the morning before the gate would open, the traveller would have to get down on his or her hands and knees and crawl thru ( including their mule or camel (( believe it or not )) ), and during the ordeal also move their suitcases, water, food and other carry-ons.
" With men this is impossible," Mt. 19:26
Jesus used the event as an example for the public to get a clear understanding of just how difficult it is ( was, impossible ) to enter the kingdom of God ( with a camel ).
" And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
" When His disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible." Mathew 19:25
thunder
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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Wikipedia on eye of a needle:
A popular explanation of the figure, dating back at least to the 9th century, was that Jesus was referring to a well-known gate in Jerusalem called Needle's Eye, that was built so low that a camel could only pass if it entered kneeling and unencumbered with baggage. The lesson would then be that an eternal inheritance awaits those who unburden themselves of sin, and in particular, the things of this world. Although there is no historical evidence that such a gate ever existed, through frequent repetition the idea has attained the status of virtual dogma in some circles. |
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