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ChristineS
Pit Bull
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 357
Location: El Cajon, CA
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Am I a pro-life minority? |
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I have always been pro-life; even before I became a Christian I was pro-life. I am just wondering if I am in a minority. Not in just the Christian world (where I am not a minority in my beliefs) but in the whole world. Are there more pro-choice people than pro-life? Has anyone done any research on this.
_________________
Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven. (Mat 10:32)
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. (Mat 10:33) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject: Re: Am I a pro-life minority? |
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| ChristineS wrote: | | I have always been pro-life; even before I became a Christian I was pro-life. I am just wondering if I am in a minority. Not in just the Christian world (where I am not a minority in my beliefs) but in the whole world. Are there more pro-choice people than pro-life? Has anyone done any research on this. |
I would guess that for the vast majority of the more than 6 billion people on Earth, they are way too busy trying to earn money for their next meal to be worried about political issues. It is only rich people like us who have the privilege of having enough time to be able to ponder such issues.
For those religious people who are pro-life, I assert that the VAST majority of them have not even read their scriptures to see what they say about abortion. Certainly this is the case with Christians; the pro-life movement in the U.S. is a distinctly Christian movement, and I doubt very much that many of them realize that there is no scriptural basis for their anti-abortion beliefs.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ChristineS
Pit Bull
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 357
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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I have known plenty of non-religious people who are pro-life. What about them? If they don't get their beliefs from religion, then where do they get them?
I have also known religious people who were pro-choice, some of them Christians.
I avoid politics of any sort, they don't influence any of my beliefs.
_________________
Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven. (Mat 10:32)
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. (Mat 10:33) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| ChristineS wrote: | | I have known plenty of non-religious people who are pro-life. What about them? If they don't get their beliefs from religion, then where do they get them? |
I'm a hard-core atheist, and I freely admit that I find abortion to be a very distasteful act. Especially late-term abortions. I totally understand where everyone is coming from. Nevertheless, without any religious beliefs, the average pro-life atheist will have a much weaker pro-life stance than the average believer.
| ChristineS wrote: |
I avoid politics of any sort, they don't influence any of my beliefs. |
That's good; politics (as well as money and power) have no place in religion. But presumably the Bible does influence your beliefs. Why do you think that the Bible says that abortion is murder?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ChristineS
Pit Bull
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 357
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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People nowadays are convinced that a unborn baby is not a human life or whatever. I guess that is different in the Bible. I never did an in-depth study about abortion in the Bible. I don't recall the Bible even mentioning it. If it did, could you post the scriptures?
_________________
Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven. (Mat 10:32)
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. (Mat 10:33) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| ChristineS wrote: | | People nowadays are convinced that a unborn baby is not a human life or whatever. I guess that is different in the Bible. I never did an in-depth study about abortion in the Bible. I don't recall the Bible even mentioning it. If it did, could you post the scriptures? |
It depends on what version of the Bible you use. Most, if not all versions say (in the book of Genesis) that Adam received his soul when he took his first breath. It is reasonable to assume that the same thing happens with babies when they are born. Since fetuses don't have souls, you can't murder them.
Just today I found a quote from Exodus in this on-line version of the Bible:
http://www.tldm.org/bible/Old%20Testament/exodus.htm:
| Quote: |
21:22. If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.
21:23. But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life,
21:24. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25. Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. |
If this is indeed a legitimate translation from antiquity, then the Bible CLEARLY states that abortion is not murder.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ChristineS
Pit Bull
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 357
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know. It did not say that the man intended to kill the unborn child. That is a quote that is up for interpretation.
Women who were barren in the bible always seemed to cry for God to give them a child. Sarai (Sarah), Hannah, Rachel, etc. They felt as if they were not complete if they did not give their husbands children. Children seem to be a nuisance to get rid of nowadays for some folks.
_________________
Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven. (Mat 10:32)
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. (Mat 10:33) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| ChristineS wrote: | I don't know. It did not say that the man intended to kill the unborn child. That is a quote that is up for interpretation.
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Yes, but if the woman dies, then the attacker gets the death penalty. If it's just the baby being miscarried, then all he has to do is pay a fine. Clearly a fetus' life is nowhere near the crime of murder according to the Bible.
| ChristineS wrote: |
Women who were barren in the bible always seemed to cry for God to give them a child. Sarai (Sarah), Hannah, Rachel, etc. They felt as if they were not complete if they did not give their husbands children. Children seem to be a nuisance to get rid of nowadays for some folks. |
Hey, don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that anyone should be killing ANY children. Anyone who murders a child should go to jail for the rest of their lives. All I'm saying is that aborting a fetus is not killing a child, and the Bible seems to agree with me.
Look up the Exodus 21 quote in your own Bible. If the version on the internet is somehow different, I'd like to know.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ChristineS
Pit Bull
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 357
Location: El Cajon, CA
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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I looked it up in several translations:
YLT:Exo 21:22 `And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges;
Exo 21:23 and if there is mischief, then thou hast given life for life,
KJV:Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
ESV:Exo 21:22 "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life
It seems that verse 22 is the same, but 23 is somewhat different in these cases. The one I have the most trouble with is the KJV, as I am not an expert of middle English. Maybe someone who is can explain what is meant by the words "if any mischief follow".
I am glad to hear that you find abortion distasteful, P1234567890.
_________________
Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will confess him before My Father who is in Heaven. (Mat 10:32)
But whoever shall deny Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father in Heaven. (Mat 10:33) |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject: |
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| ChristineS wrote: | | People nowadays are convinced that a unborn baby is not a human life or whatever. I guess that is different in the Bible. I never did an in-depth study about abortion in the Bible. I don't recall the Bible even mentioning it. If it did, could you post the scriptures? |
It was around in the 'old' world, particularly, places like Egypt; however, most of the time back then so many were too busy tossing babies into the likes of the fires of Molech for sacrifical purposes. But there are places where corellaries can be found that make it plain the unborn at any stage of development is life:
Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | But there are places where corellaries can be found that make it plain the unborn at any stage of development is life:
Jeremiah 1:5, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." |
So? Nobody's arguing that the cells aren't alive. It's whether they're human that's the issue.
Further, the verse doesn't even appear to apply, it's referring specifically to Jeremiah. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Not to mention that God can always say things like "I knew thee", even millions of years before you were born, since God is omniscient. But your soul certainly didn't enter your body millions of years before conception.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| ChristineS wrote: | I looked it up in several translations:
YLT:Exo 21:22 `And when men strive, and have smitten a pregnant woman, and her children have come out, and there is no mischief, he is certainly fined, as the husband of the woman doth lay upon him, and he hath given through the judges;
Exo 21:23 and if there is mischief, then thou hast given life for life,
KJV:Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
ESV:Exo 21:22 "When men strive together and hit a pregnant woman, so that her children come out, but there is no harm, the one who hit her shall surely be fined, as the woman's husband shall impose on him, and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 But if there is harm, then you shall pay life for life
It seems that verse 22 is the same, but 23 is somewhat different in these cases. The one I have the most trouble with is the KJV, as I am not an expert of middle English. Maybe someone who is can explain what is meant by the words "if any mischief follow".
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Well, it looks like the people who translated the different versions of the Bible REALLY screwed things up. Too bad they're all so incredibly unclear and poorly-translated. The only clear one was the electronic version of the Bible I was quoting. It can be found here:
http://www.tldm.org/tldmstore/CatholicDouayRheimsBible.htm
They call it the 'Douay-Rheims Bible', if that means anything to anyone here. I really, really want to know what the oldest Hebrew and Greek Bibles say.
In any case, do you see my point? At the very least, the Bible is unclear on the issue of abortion. There are no good scriptural arguments supporting the pro-life movement. I think that hardly anybody knows this. Most people assume that the Bible is clearly on the side of pro-life, when in fact it is not. When a pro-lifer dies and goes to heaven, there's a good chance that God will lecture them about how they acted unjustly, and that abortion is fine.
| ChristineS wrote: |
I am glad to hear that you find abortion distasteful, P1234567890. |
Of course I do. I doubt that there are very many sane people who can even listen to the process of partial-birth abortion being described without feeling queasy.
I think that ideally there should be no abortions. That's why we should increase sex education and make sure that contraception is readily available to anyone who wants it, including teenagers.
But if a woman wants an abortion for ANY reason, she should be able to have one. The only real question is where to draw the line in terms of how many weeks of pregnancy.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1368
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:25 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
But if a woman wants an abortion for ANY reason, she should be able to have one. The only real question is where to draw the line in terms of how many weeks of pregnancy. |
P#, according to the line of reasoning you've outlined...the line is already drawn...it's anytime prior to "drawing the first breath"....
Like you, I don't like that idea either.
I think the "common person" guideline is "anytime prior to the fetus being able to survice outside the womb." What's interesting is modern medicine is making pre-term deliveries "survivable" earlier and earlier....
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Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7557
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 6:59 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Like you, I don't like that idea either.
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I think that the rule of thumb should be that if a woman is going to have an abortion, she should have it is soon during the prgnancy as possible.
| Pondering wrote: |
I think the "common person" guideline is "anytime prior to the fetus being able to survice outside the womb." What's interesting is modern medicine is making pre-term deliveries "survivable" earlier and earlier.... |
The key word being 'survivable'... They can keep premature babies alive, but they are much more likely to have severe health problems later on.
Eventually we'll get to the point where women don't even have to carry the baby at all...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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