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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7553
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
OK, now I'm getting it. Yes, I agree that some things are answered with the phrase, "because God works in mysterious ways". I just don't think this particular scenerio is a mystery.
<I actually started to explain what I mean, but it's really meaningless if you don't have the light of the Spirit of God. I don't mean that as a jab, just a fact. Like I didn't get a lot of stuff about the civil war until I started to study it in the "light" or spirit of it all. So, I'll just have to leave it at that and thank you for some stimulating, thought provoking arguments.> |
Fair enough. Thanks for your thoughts as well!
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Flash,
your explanation for why God allows some children to step on landmines (maybe they'll be rewarded for their sacrifice in the afterlife...) makes sense..."Don't do evil 'cause many suffer"...it follows from Christ's "Love they neighbor" theme...however, it doesn't explain why God allows debilitating birth defects or cancer...what are we supposed to learn from that? |
Hi Pondering,
I'm sure there could be myriad explanations, but only God knows (that'll get P. grinning).
As far as God "allowing"...???...although I claim to know the mind of God, sometimes I have to fall back on my own common sense. Cancer has causes - as do birth defects. Smoking, using Teflon, breathing noxious fumed air, blah, blah, blah - could cause both. It's the same reason he "allowed" the child to step on the landmine.
I don't think I'm too far off base here when I state that God created us without any sickness and the "original sin" got all that going. Not that it's "out of God's hands", but he purposely and ordinarily doesn't interfere with things that have "natural" causes.
He does step in, from time-to-time, and adjust things so that a greater good will come out of it: Like heal someone that later will become a great preacher (a Billy Graham type) or evangelist (or something along those lines).
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7553
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
He does step in, from time-to-time, and adjust things so that a greater good will come out of it: Like heal someone that later will become a great preacher (a Billy Graham type) or evangelist (or something along those lines). |
If God is going to intervene to save the life of someone like Billy Graham who was a well-documented anti-seminte (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_graham), I would hope that He would intervene to save an innocent child from stepping on a landmine.
The way Billy Graham mixed preaching with big business certainly wasn't for the greater good...
All I'm saying is that you could have come up with a much better example, like Einstein or Archimedes, or Newton, or someone like that.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Flashman wrote: |
He does step in, from time-to-time, and adjust things so that a greater good will come out of it: Like heal someone that later will become a great preacher (a Billy Graham type) or evangelist (or something along those lines). |
If God is going to intervene to save the life of someone like Billy Graham who was a well-documented anti-seminte (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_graham), I would hope that He would intervene to save an innocent child from stepping on a landmine.
The way Billy Graham mixed preaching with big business certainly wasn't for the greater good...
All I'm saying is that you could have come up with a much better example, like Einstein or Archimedes, or Newton, or someone like that. |
Point well taken! However, in his (Graham's) defense, he did apologize and hasn't made comments like that since. I also used similar words about the news media, and about the Pakistani's and Eastern Indians owning all the 7-11's, but there is some truth there - it just isn't very Christianlike to harbor those thoughts, let alone speak them. He nor I never hated "those people", but characterized a race (or mischaracterized). Not a good idea.
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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nayknee
Not So Newbie
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: umm....no! |
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| Hey I can see where you're coming from but you also have to look at it this way, God's way is perfect, he says no murdering so no murdering. period. Also God sent a flood to destroy the entire earth. (Noah and the Ark.) But does that give us a right to send a flood to destroy people. NO! its not we imperfect human beings can not fathom God's plan. You can't compare us to a perfect being, we are too miniscule. So if God the creator of the universe wants to kill babies then let him, but he says its wrong for us to do so without his consent! |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Nayknee,
Welcome to the forum.
Are you saying that God sets double standards? Sort of a "do as I say, not as I do" God?
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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nayknee
Not So Newbie
Joined: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 7:33 am Post subject: hey |
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hey wats up,
No, what I mean is God allows people to be killed for a prupose. We don't have a right to make that choice, for we are not God. We can not fathom his will, so we are not able to make a decision about killing babies whilst they are still unborn. |
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jsarber
Newbie Alert
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Let me ask the pro-choice advocates here, since this is a Bible discussion forum...
Where's the scripture to support abortion?
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Jeremy |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5141
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Hi jsarber, first off "Welcome to our group! 
| jsarber wrote: | | Where's the scripture to support abortion? |
Jeremy, I don't know of any!  Do you? 
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Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| jsarber wrote: | Let me ask the pro-choice advocates here, since this is a Bible discussion forum...
Where's the scripture to support abortion? |
On that note, where's the scripture to support computers? Or automobiles?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7553
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| jsarber wrote: |
Where's the scripture to support abortion? |
When God created Adam, he received his soul with his first breath. Therefore, according to scripture, ensoulment happens with the first breath (See the Book of Genesis).
Since fetuses haven't taken their first breath yet, they do not have souls.
It is perfectly fine to kill living things which do not have souls. For example, when we kill animals for food, it is not considered to be murder because they don't have souls.
Since fetuses do not have souls, it is similarly acceptable to kill them. In other words, it is possible to make a reasonable argument from scripture which
a) shows that abortion is not murder, and
b) thereby justifies abortion scripturally.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 73
Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:01 am Post subject: |
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| jsarber wrote: | Let me ask the pro-choice advocates here, since this is a Bible discussion forum...
Where's the scripture to support abortion? |
I am not pro-choice because of what's in the scripture or not. I'm not Christian, and I don't worship the same God anymore as I did two years ago. So, whether abortion is mentioned in scripture or not is irrevelant to me.
However, when I was pro-life, I did try to find where in the bible and scripture it did mention that abortion was wrong or murder...and I didn't find anything about it. Of course, I wasn't pro-life due to my religious beliefs either. I'm was on both sides due to moral beliefs rather than religious ones. Just giving you my two cents.
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When do we stop learning? Maybe never |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6885
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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jsarber. There is no scriptural support for abortion, neither is there scripture that speaks against abortion.
Many interpret scriptures in such a way that it leads them to beleive that abortion is wrong - and there is nothing wrong with that, and many interpret scripture in such a way that leads them to beleive that scripture is silent on the issue - and there is nothing wrong with that either.
I personally have only had difficulty with people who say that the bible says something it does not say (like abortion is murder, or that dancing is a sin, or some other such silliness). If one wants to assert that their personal spiritual conviction is that abortion is wrong, then I have no problem with that at all, as I too have personal spiritual convictions of things which are sinful or not sinful to me which scripture does not specifically address.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
Location: Tejas
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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P123, naughty naughty...
| Quote: | When God created Adam, he received his soul with his first breath. Therefore, according to scripture, ensoulment happens with the first breath (See the Book of Genesis).
Since fetuses haven't taken their first breath yet, they do not have souls. |
No, fetuses haven't taken their first breath yet, but neither did Adam inhabit a womb prior to his taking of the first breath. Adam was our father, but he was born out of clay, we were born within a woman. Therefore, you cannot take the case of Adam not being ensouled until his first breath and attempt to extrapolate from this an overarching claim wherein you say no one becomes ensouled until their first breath. You cannot do so given that Adam was peculiar and quite different in many ways, who is to say he was not in this case.
I thought we agreed that Scripture does not give a definitive answer on this, why are you arguing as though it does.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7553
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: |
I thought we agreed that Scripture does not give a definitive answer on this, why are you arguing as though it does. |
He wanted an argument from scripture, so I gave him one. Don't worry; I wasn't trying to pull a fast one, as I agree that the argument I gave is relatively weak.
Probably a stronger one is the 'twins' argument. Although it doesn't rely directly on scripture, it is relevant.
Another stronger one is probably the fact that abortions were widely practiced in antiquity, and yet the Bible makes no mention of them. If they were really so evil, then the Bible would have mentioned them, as its writers would have been aware of them. They must not have thought that they were bad.
Along those same lines, if God really thought that abortions were wrong, then He would have made sure that some scripture was included against them. Being omniscient, He would have seen that it was going to be a big issue in the future.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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