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admin
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 Posted: Sat May 06, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject: Need for Islamic Reformation? |
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Someone mentioned to me yesterday that Islam may be in need of it's own reformation. As much as some may dislike the Christian reformation, it DID weaken the absolute political strength of a corrupt religion hierarchy.
On the surface this makes sense to me, but I realize my understanding of Islam is close to nil.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 07, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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One of the best ideas that Western Civilization has ever come up with was the idea of separating church and state. This was a truly fabulous idea, both for the church and the state; we don't want the church meddling in state afairs, and we don't want the state meddling in church affairs. BOTH of these things happen when there is no separation.
Islam desparately needs to start separating church and state.
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admin
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:58 am Post subject: |
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| Agreed. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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Cool. I would even go further and say that religion and politics should be separated as much as possible, since they also pollute each other. Same with religion and big money.
Ideally, religion's domain should be purely spiritual; once you start adding politics, power, and money, things start getting corrupted.
Unfortunately, having a total separation between religion and all of these things is impossible, since any preacher inherently has influential power, since every church needs money to operate, and since some issues such as abortion have immediate religious implications.
All we can do is minimize them as much as possible.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 11:49 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Islam desparately needs to start separating church and state. |
Unfortunately, the Koran endorses a Church/State relationship, so, we will not see this occurring anytime soon. The faith itself demands that state laws be based on Sharia Law (Islamic Law as set forth in the Koran). With that said, any governmental organization, with a majority population of Muslims, will find itself more and more pressed to structure their laws, and their involvement in ensuring compliance with Islamic Law (Sharia). Therefore, the separation is virtually impossible when the faith is practiced as outlined in the Koran.
So, if your are waiting for a reformation of sorts to sweep through the middle east... don't hold your breath as it just ain't going to happen unless it forced upon them.
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admin
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 1:52 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting! Didn't know that.
I found out something roughly related. The US constitution says that our rights are given from God, the USSR constitution said that human rights are given by the state. Interesting difference in perspective.
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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| ...they are given by GOD and taken by the state... |
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Pondering
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Joined: 15 Sep 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | Interesting! Didn't know that.
I found out something roughly related. The US constitution says that our rights are given from God, the USSR constitution said that human rights are given by the state. Interesting difference in perspective. |
Another interesting thing, if you read the USSR constitution, it's really well written and fairly Utopian...The big difference comes in practice...we try (generally) to follow both the spirit and letter of the law...the Soviet constitution was a propoganda/display piece...
Also, I always find it interesting how our Consititution is both the bedrock of our government and a "working document"...Remeber, when the signers of the Declaration of Independence wrote: "We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal..." They meant white free landholders...not women, not blacks....yet as our society evolved, the spirit of the document led us to make those ammendments....what a great thing it is 
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Pondering
Lion King
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| Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Slightly off topic but linked hereis the text of the Iranian president's letter to President Bush...in case you missed it the first time...
guess there is some truth to "lost in translation"...it reads pretty disjointedly...
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Pondering
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P1234567890
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | Here's the Iranian answer to reformation.... |
Lovely... I think I've seen this movie before, and I know how it ends. 
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
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Joined: 02 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:19 am Post subject: |
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Reformation? No, its fine the way it is.
The problem- its the people, the followers that need reforming and need to get their act together. Muslims have strayed so far from Islam, and need to have a serious think about what they're doing and where they're going.
On the topic of Church and State, i find it deeply unfortunate that such a thing is happening. I feel that religion and state are not two distinct things, but rather state is a part of religion.
Im not too sure about Christianity and what kind of political framework it lays down, what kind of laws it has, etc. if any. Anyone?
But what i can say for Islam is this, it has a political framework and its form of governance. Although this governance hasn't been implemented in many so-called 'Muslim' countries. Many of these leaders are corrupt and have no interest in the people. They neither represent Islam nor does Islam endourse their type of rule. The sooner they are replaced with more suitable folk, the better. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
But what i can say for Islam is this, it has a political framework and its form of governance. Although this governance hasn't been implemented in many so-called 'Muslim' countries. Many of these leaders are corrupt and have no interest in the people. They neither represent Islam nor does Islam endourse their type of rule. The sooner they are replaced with more suitable folk, the better. |
It doesn't matter how good the leaders are; if state and church are not separated, there will be MAJOR problems. A separation between church and state is absolutely necessary. It's one of the best ideas mankind has ever come up with.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: |
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In Sweden, there wasn't a separation of Church and State until the mid 1990's.
I don't really see a problem with that there was no separation.
Remember, I'm a secular humanist.
Fake
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
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| Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | In Sweden, there wasn't a separation of Church and State until the mid 1990's.
I don't really see a problem with that there was no separation.
Remember, I'm a secular humanist.
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Sweden is the exception, not the rule. It is an advanced, civilized, industrialized country with a peaceful, highly-educated, homogenous population and virtually no social problems, not to mention an incredible number of hot blonde babes. Pretty much any system of government or lack thereof would work fine under those conditions.
For the rest of the world that is not as civilized, a separation between church and state is absolutely necessary if you want to make them more civilized. Certainly every single Islamic country on the planet would benefit incredibly from a greater separation between church and state.
They would also benefit greatly from hot blondes. If Saudi Arabia had more hot blonde babes, they maybe wouldn't need a separation between church and state... 
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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