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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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 Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Actually it is MORE likely that the Word of God knew certain things before man did and that some of us... cough ***FFT*** cough... will assert any opinion in order to avoid admitting demonstrated biblical truth. |
Actually, it's MORE likely that the Greeks knew certain things before man wrote them in the bible and that some of us... cough ***RevJP*** cough... will assert any opinion in order to avoid admitting that it's possible that even if the Bible is God-breathed, men wrote it down with their own limited brains as filters.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nice link.
What did it say...
| Quote: | | The Greek philosopher Aristotle (384-322 BC) argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, because of the circular shadow it cast on the Moon, during a lunar eclipse. |
| Quote: | The Alexandria philosopher Eratosthenes went one step further and actually estimated how large the Earth was.
Eratosthenes of Cyrene - 276BC - 194BC |
| Quote: |
The Arab Khalif El Ma'mun, who ruled in Baghdad from 813 to 833, sent out two teams of surveyors to measure a north-south baseline and from it also obtained the radius of the Earth. Compared to the value known today, those estimates were pretty close to the mark. |
So from as early as about 813 BC.... rougly a decade or so after the scriptures (Isa) stated this truth.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
So from as early as about 813 BC.... rougly a decade or so after the scriptures (Isa) stated this truth. |
Lend a hand: in which passage of Isaiah was this stated?
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RevJP
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Flashman wrote: |
In the bible there is quoted, a few times, the phrase: "As far as the East is from the West".
I'm pretty sure no one had actual "scientific" knowledge that the earth rotated on the N/S axis. How might it be explained that they did know that you could travel East or West eternally?
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I have two possible explanations:
1. The quote "As far as the East is from the West" doesn't necessarily indicate that people back then knew that you could travel East or West eternally. This might have just been a metaphor for "A very great distance." ie. the distance from the Westernmost part of the known world to its most Easternmost part. This is still many thousands of miles, which is a huge distance; it doesn't necessarily have to be infinite.
2. If, as you say, this quote actually is a metaphor for infinity, then it could be explained by the fact that the ancient Greeks DID know that the Earth is a sphere. |
I'm not agreeing with either 1 or 2, but in biblical context, that's what they were implying. Like your sins would be cast away "forever", which is understood is not finite.
Now, what I'm still seeing here on these posts, more viciously by others, is that you want me to understand your point of view...that FFT (in his own words) is trying to teach me...if I'd only learn.
I'm asking you to consider the possibility that my assumption that the east/west thing meant something "forever". If that were true, how would they KNOW that back then?
Flashman
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Okay. Explain to me, how on a sphere, East and West are far apart.
I'll give you a hint: they're the same place. |
You can travel East forever and never change direction. It's an infinite journey.
FFT, you sometimes show flashes of brilliance, but most of the time you are so busy arguing your point that you miss a lot of truths. You *can* be wrong once in a while and no one will hate you.
Flashman
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | ou *can* be wrong once in a while and no one will hate you. |
Don't be so sure.... 
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed May 03, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | ou *can* be wrong once in a while and no one will hate you. |
Don't be so sure.... |
Ok, there may be some exceptions. 
Flashman
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Wow  I don't know what to say now! We actually have come to some sort of agreement on something! A workable theory that incorporates what we know as the truth of the process of evolution, which does not unnecessarily include the theory of macroevolution, but does allow for its limited possibility. A theory that does not reject the essential truths of Creation, but does not unnecessarily include the insistence on 'young earth creationism'.
I'm staggered.... |
You know, I just re-read this thread, and we were doing some good thinking. We shouldn't let this thread die; it's pretty interesting...
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Atavisms... with the horse toes, how would that work? Did one day, a horse with toes just give birth to a horse with no toes?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Atavisms... with the horse toes, how would that work? Did one day, a horse with toes just give birth to a horse with no toes? |
Probably not. I don't know how many toes these things had, but for the sake of argument, let's say five. One day a horse with five toes probably gave birth to a horse in which two of the toes were fused together because of a genetic mutation. This ended up being a beneficial mutation, so the gene for four-toedness spread.
Then eventually a four-toed horse gave birth to one that only had three, and so on.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:06 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Atavisms... with the horse toes, how would that work? Did one day, a horse with toes just give birth to a horse with no toes? |
Probably not. I don't know how many toes these things had, but for the sake of argument, let's say five. One day a horse with five toes probably gave birth to a horse in which two of the toes were fused together because of a genetic mutation. This ended up being a beneficial mutation, so the gene for four-toedness spread.
Then eventually a four-toed horse gave birth to one that only had three, and so on. |
Alright, so after that, say 20 generations later, a horse with toes is born. Does the horse have just the minimum amount of toes? Does that horse have all 5 toes? Is that possible? It sounds like the toe information would have mutated to the point where it just wasn't used any more, and then got shut off, so if it can be turned on again, wouldn't it just be to the last mutation that was present before it got turned off? Or can it be turned on to prior information (ie. does the dna store all original information, as well as mutation information, or do mutations just record over the original info)?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
Alright, so after that, say 20 generations later, a horse with toes is born. Does the horse have just the minimum amount of toes? Does that horse have all 5 toes? Is that possible? It sounds like the toe information would have mutated to the point where it just wasn't used any more, and then got shut off, so if it can be turned on again, wouldn't it just be to the last mutation that was present before it got turned off? Or can it be turned on to prior information (ie. does the dna store all original information, as well as mutation information, or do mutations just record over the original info)? |
I'm not a very good person to ask. I know a lot about genetics from a computational standpoint, but I lack a lot of basic knowledge that a biologist would have.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Jeremy
Not So Newbie
Joined: 29 Jul 2006
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: lets chat...but I only have the net on weekends. Doh! |
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| Quote: | | Documented examples include humans with real tails, horses with toes, whales with hind legs |
Explain these documented examples some more. Do you have links to the full stories? What constitutes a tail, toes, and hind legs? It just seems like, if a whale was found with a full set of working hind legs itt would have been plastered all over the news like crazy, so I want to know more specifically what we are actually talking about. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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Wikipedia on Atavisms
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