Just how many Gods are there, Iris?

Michael D · Goldfish Joined: 01 Nov 2002 Posts: 56 Location: Colorado

quote:
by Iris89.
It can clearly be seen that while Jesus (Yeshua or YHWH saves) is a God, he is a lessor God than his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) and is subordinate to his and not equal to or before him.

Iris, how many Gods do the Jehovah's Witnesses teach that there are?

iris89 · Pit Bull Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 359

Hi Michael D:

That is a denominational question and I do not answer or do specific research by denomination, but you can find out I believe from M'Clintstoks Ency of Comparative Rel.

Note, I will not be on the Internet until mid April as I must go away on an emergency.

Your friend Iris

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Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."

Matdvd

I think there is 16 or 17 Mike.

And if ya noticed, the football gods shined favorably upon my Buckeyes yesterday!!!!!

Nobby

quote:
Originally posted by Matdvd:
And if ya noticed, the football gods shined favorably upon my Buckeyes yesterday!!!!!

"SHOWOFF!!!!!!

Michael D · Goldfish Joined: 01 Nov 2002 Posts: 56 Location: Colorado

OK, Iris, then how many Gods do *YOU* say that there are? I really want to understand what you believe.

Michael D · Goldfish Joined: 01 Nov 2002 Posts: 56 Location: Colorado

quote:
Originally posted by by Iris89.
It can clearly be seen that while Jesus (Yeshua or YHWH saves) is a God, he is a lessor God than his Father, Almighty God (YHWH) and is subordinate to his and not equal to or before him.

Main Entry: les·sor
Pronunciation: 'le-"sor, le-'sor
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English lessour, from Anglo-French, from lesser to lease
Date: 14th century
: one that conveys property by lease

Does Iris believe that Jesus is the God of rental property?

????

Just teasing, Iris. I really would like to know how many Gods you say that there are.

Matdvd

Hey Nobby, it's been since like 1968 since we've had a title....let a guy live in the moment....it may be another 35 years for the next one! Hehehe.

My question added to this topic would be that if there are "lessor" gods, do we have to worship them too, just by their title?

Not this fella...sorry.

Phinehas

Isaiah 43:10
"You are my witnesses," declares the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me."

Isaiah 44:6-8
"This is what the LORD says- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God. Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it. Let him declare and lay out before me what has happened since I established my ancient people, and what is yet to come- yes, let him foretell what will come. Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."

I dunno 'bout the rest o' y'alls, but I's with God. Ain't none but Him. I mean, dang, how many times He got to say it?

Phin

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“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

[This message has been edited by Phinehas (edited 01-16-2003).]

Matdvd

Perfectly stated.

rondoggy · Ferret Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 124

Iris stated that Jesus is a God, while the New World Translation states he is a god.
Why is that?
Ron
_________________
Ron
" The best is yet to come!"

iris89 · Pit Bull Joined: 16 Nov 2002 Posts: 359

Hi Everyone:

Let's Clear-up The Confusion About Almighty God (YHWH) and Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves):

PART 1

I see that confusion is obfuscating basic facts with respect Almighty God (YHWH) and his Son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves). One of the major problems is getting hung-up on minutia with regards definitions instead of thinking about Bible truths. But I hope I can clear it up for everyone. Let's get back to basics and see what the Ten Commandments really say:
"And God spake all these words, saying,
2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
13 Thou shalt not kill.
14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.
15 Thou shalt not steal.
16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's" (Exodus 20:1-17 AV)
And what Jesus (Jeshua or JHVH saves) said about the two greatest commandments:
"Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets"(Matthew 22:36-40 AV)

Now I believe I can clear up the confusion that many individuals have with respect the Son of Almighty God (YHWH) when they ask questions about how many Gods there are, and make statements such as “The Bible clearly says that we are to not have any other gods, only the one true god."

First, the Bible clearly says, '3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3 AV). Now note exactly what it is saying, you shall NOT HAVE OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. In other words, no other god or deity shall be before him or on a standing equal to him. This is the Bible taught doctrine of monotheism that the Jews held for centuries before Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) came on the scene, even though his coming was prophecied over 500 times in the Old Testament. When Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) arrived and grew to be a man, he was asked what was the greatest commandment, and answered, 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind"(Matthew 22:37 AV). Now we are ready to deal with the questions, about how many Gods there are, and make statements such as The Bible clearly says that we are to not have any other gods, only the one true god

Second, Both of these statements, "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."(Exodus 20:3 AV), and , "37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."(Matthew 22:37 AV), clearly show there is only one Almighty God (YHWH) and that he demands exclusive devotion and we should love him with all our heart, soul, and mind. Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) always made this clearly known to all. He stated, "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."(John 14:28 AV), "Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise"(John 5:19 AV), and the Apostles said, 'And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all"(1 Corinthians 15:28 AV), " But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."(1 Corinthians 11:3 AV) clearly showing he occupied a lessor position, and therefore was NOT A GOD BEFORE HIS FATHER ALMIGHTY GOD (YHWH), so no violation of ;3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me."(Exodus 20:3 AV).

He always stated all glory belonged to his Father (YHWH) and what glory he had came from his Father (YHWH):
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."(Matthew 16:27 AV) – Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
"They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared."(Mark 10:37-40 AV;Note, this glory was not his to give but his Father's (YHWH's).
"There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger"(Luke 17:18 AV)
"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."(John 1:14 AV) – Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
"He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him>"(John 7:18 AV) ) Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
'When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby."(John 11:4 AV) "Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
'Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"(John 11:40 AV) "Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5 AV)—Note he is asking his Father (YHWH) to give him back the glory that he had previously given him.
“ And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:” (John 17:22 AV) – Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
“ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.” (John 17:24 AV) – Note, in his Fathers glory not his own.
“ But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,” (Acts 7:55 AV) –Note it says glory of God (YHWH) with his son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) standing on his right, but the Apostle said he was full of the Holy Ghost; therefore the Holy Ghost must be God’s (YHWH’s) active force and not a spirit being as the Apostle was, “being full of the Holy Ghost.”
“ And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost.” (Acts 12:23 AV) –Note, this shows what happens when we fail to give glory to Almighty God (YHWH).
“ And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.” (Romans 1:23 AV)
“ He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;” (Romans 4:20 AV)
“ By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” (Romans 5:2 AV)
“ Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Romans 6:4 AV) –Note in whose glory, that of the Father, God Almighty (YHWH).
“ Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.” (Romans 15:7 AV) –Note in whose glory, that of the Father, God Almighty (YHWH).
“ To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen. <<Written to the Romans from Corinthus, and sent by Phebe servant of the church at Cenchrea.>>” (Romans 16:27 AV)
“ For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.” (2 Corinthians 1:20 AV)

As can be seen from the foregoing all glory belongs to Almighty God (YHWH) and he gives of it to whom he wishes including to his Son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves). This is clearly made clear by “ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” (1 Timothy 2:5 AV), “ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16 AV), “ He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36 AV), “ But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.” (Hebrews 8:6 AV), “ And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.” (Hebrews 9:15 AV), “ And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.” (Hebrews 12:24 AV). Therefore, it can clearly be seen that Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) is the mediator of a new covenant between mankind and Almighty God (YHWH) and there is no other mediator.

Third, Jesus plainly said, “ Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:34 AV) This is part of scripture where he was being accused of blasphemy because he said he was the Son of Almighty God (YHWH), “Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.” (John 10:25-38 AV). Note, he called them gods, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” (John 10:24-35 AV). So this gets us back to what is the meaning of “3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.” (Exodus 20:3 AV). Clearly in this context any entity at a higher plane
or level can be considered a god which would be the next one up from where you are in the superior/subordinate authority line given in “ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.” (1 Corinthians 11:3 AV). So in that sense, the Son of Almighty God (YHWH) would be a god, but definitely not the Almighty God (YHWH). In fact his name in Hebrew literally means “YHWH saves” clearly showing that his Father ultimately “saves” individuals, but through his son, Jesus (Yeshua or YHWH saves). Now I believe this clears up the confusion with regard questions like, “how many Gods there are, and make statements such as “The Bible clearly says that we are to not have any other gods, only the one true god.”’

Part 2

Now to cover several other important areas with respect Almighty God (YHWH) being the supreme being and his son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) being an obedient son to him of lessor power, as a serious of questions and answers – using actual questions that have been asked by some individuals to illustrate Bible truths:

Item 1) All these verses that you bring up to prove that Jesus is not the almighty God, I accept. I accept everything that the Bible has to say, not just the parts that say what I want them to. You however deny the meaning of many verses that prove you wrong. How can you only accept parts of the Bible and not all of them.

Ans. You are very confused, I accept the entire Bible, but you seem to have a major problem realizing that Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) is Almighty God’s only begotten Son. Why, I have no idea as the scriptures are quite clear on this fact:
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Hebrews 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.
Hebrews 11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Now just what is your problem in understanding with respect realizing this fact.

Item 2)(We are to trust as little children, why don't you? Why don't you want to accept all of the Bible? Why only the verses that prove YOUR point? If you love God then your point shouldn't matter.

Ans. You should be asking yourself that question not me as it appears you have a problem with accepting the scriptures as clearly pointed out to you in item 1. Now please open your mind and learn what a Father and a Son are:
Note that this special son is not talked about as already existing and taking on a new form as The Trinitarian Doctrine would require it. In fact, how can a son be co-equal and co-existent with his father? The Doctrine of The Trinity defies the universally accepted and historically always held meaning of the words for father and son. Not only does it defy the meaning of these words, it destroys their meaning! This fact is important to realize for God gave us language. It was not invented by man as the evolutionist tries to say. Thus, we are not destroying man made terms, but God-given terms! These terms, as given to us by God, require that the father exists before the son, and for the son to be brought into existence by the father. This universally accepted and recognized definition is what these terms have meant from the beginning of this creation. Therefore, who has given anyone the authority to change these God-given terms now? In fact, The Lord Jesus Christ verifies the meaning of these terms when he says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." John 13:16 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I." John 14:28. Here, he establishes that God is his lord, that he was sent by his lord, that God is his Father, and that his Father is greater than he himself. How could any of these declarations be true if the Doctrine of The Trinity is true? It is clearly impossible for these declarations of The Lord Jesus Christ to be true and the Doctrine of The Trinity to be True! It is easy to see that these words of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Doctrine of the Trinity are mutually exclusive and opposing views!

“ And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52 AV)

Now note, “ Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;” (Hebrews 5:8 AV), he, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) had to learn obedience by that which he suffered and as he was growing up he “ And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.” (Luke 2:52 AV). So he did not start off with wisdom, but it had to increase as he grewup. If he was God, then how could such a statement apply? Isn't God omniscient? Isn't this passage teaching us that this special son would have to go through a learning process like every other normal natural human being? Isn't it telling us that he at one time did not know the difference between good and evil? Isn't it teaching us that he would have to learn to refuse the evil and choose the good? The answer to these questions is obviously yes! It doesn't take someone with a doctorate degree to answer them. In fact, the only too obvious answer to all of these questions destroys The Trinitarian concept of this special son. Furthermore, this conclusion from these passages is verified by what is said about The Lord Jesus Christ in The New Testament. Consider the following passages:
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. Luke 2:40.
And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Luke 2:52.
But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. Matt. 24:36.
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mark 13:32.
For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. John 5:20.
And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Acts 1:7
The revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev. 1:1.
At this point, let us briefly look at the implications of the above listed passages. We will take them in the order in which we quoted them.
In Luke 2:40, we have the natural process of growth in any descendant of Adam clearly set out and applied to the Lord Jesus Christ. If the Lord Jesus Christ is God, then how can he be said to increase in strength? Does this mean that he became a weak human child? How can God lose His strength and still be called God? In this weakened state couldn't the God of the Universe have been wiped out? Next, how could Jesus , if he was God, need to increase in spirit? Does this mean God decreased His normal quantity of spirit? If so, then how did He refill Himself with it once again? Again, wouldn't this have exposed the God of the universe to the potential of being destroyed? Now notice that the grace of God was upon him. If he was God, then why was the grace of God upon him? Doesn't this show that God is God and separate from Jesus? How can any other meaning be obtained from this statement? Furthermore, why was God in need of grace? Doesn't it seem strange that He would be extending grace to Himself? In that case, shouldn't the grace be found in and not upon Himself? Also, remember that grace is unmerited divine favor. Was God placing favor that He did not earn upon Himself? Doesn't this reveal how fundamentally wrong The Doctrine of The Trinity is? Now let us proceed to the next passage which will further reveal how wrong this doctrine is.

In Luke 2:52 we are told that "Jesus ... increased in wisdom ... increased in stature ... increased in favour with God and man.
If Jesus is God, how can he increase in wisdom? Did God empty Himself of wisdom and have to be refilled with it all over again? How could He regain this wisdom once He had let go of it? How is it possible for Him to remove His wisdom and still be considered God? Is there such a thing as an unwise God? It would seem to me that to ask such a question is to answer it! Furthermore, it seems to me that He would be exposing Himself to any crafty individual by doing such an obviously absurd thing. It definitely seems that He was opened up to being outsmarted by almost anyone wiser than He at the time. Also, who was maintaining His universe when he was in such a weakened and unwise state? Now notice that he had to increase in favor with God. Does this mean that He had to increase in favor with Himself? How can it be said that he increased in favor with God unless he wasn't God? Obviously, God is viewed as God in this passage and Jesus as separate from and in need of God's favor like every other human being. In fact, these passages are emphasizing how identical to us Jesus was at that time! This fact is important when we come to look at the atonement and what was accomplished in Jesus' death. We will leave that for a future discussion. Notice, also, that it says Jesus increased in favor with man as well as with God. If Jesus is God, and, therefore, the Creator of man, then, why is it important for him to increase in favor with man who is His creation? None of this makes any sense if The Doctrine of The Trinity is true. If Jesus was really a man and had just come into existence at that time, then all of these passages make perfect sense. If you feel all of this creates insurmountable problems for this doctrine, then wait and see what is coming next!

In Matt. 24:36 and Mark 13:32, we are informed that there is knowledge which no one, man, or angel, or he, Jesus, possesses but only The Father! If Jesus is God, coequal with the Father, then, how is it that he acknowledges that the Father possesses knowledge that he himself, just like other men, does not possess?
How can one part of The Trinity be said to know something that the other part does not know? Isn't this nonsensical to say the least? Notice Jesus puts himself in the same category with the rest of Adam's race with respect to this knowledge. How can he still be God if he knows no more than other men on this subject? Doesn't this show that God is separate and distinct from the son and superior to and not co-equal with him? Obviously, it does!

We now arrive at John 5:20 where we are informed that the Father loves the son. Does this really mean that He is in love with Himself? Isn't this conceit? We are also informed that the Father was educating His son: "and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel." If Jesus is God, then why is it necessary to shew himself all things that he himself is doing? If he is omniscient, then, why does he have to be shown all things?
Doesn't the Doctrine of The Trinity make a farce out of this very beautiful passage of The Father loving and educating His son? Again, doesn't this passage demonstrate that The Father is separate from and superior to the son and not co-equal with him? It seems to me that it does if considered objectively and logically. By the way, being logical is being appealed to for this is the way The Creator made us so that He can reason with us in a very objective and sensible manner.

Notice what He says in Isaiah 1:18, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith Yahweh ...." Also, in Rom. 12:1, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable [LOGIKOS, pertaining to the reason, rational, (English, logical) ..." E.W. Bullinger, A CRITICAL LEXICON AND CONCORDANCE TO THE ENGLISH AND GREEK NEW TESTAMENT, page 625.] service." Thus, The Doctrine of The Trinity defies the very fundamental way The Creator has made us. It is a totally illogical and irrational doctrine. It is a doctrine that must be offered without explanation because it can not be logically explained. In addition, Faith involves our capacity to reason logically on the evidence that God has offered to us so that we can be persuaded that He exists and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. (Hebrews 11:6) Paul also informs us that we are saved by grace through faith in Ephesians 2:8. Grace is the means and faith is the channel. Thus, logically being persuaded of God's provisions is the channel through which God's grace proceeds! We will now proceed to the next passage.

In Acts 1:7, we are again confronted with a declaration that there is knowledge that is solely in the control of The Father. Remember, this declaration is being made after his resurrection and matches exactly what he had said before. He is no longer checked by mortality. He is immortal and incorruptible. He has been glorified. In spite of these facts, he clearly declares that there are things which are only in the power of the Father! How can this possibly be if he is co-equal with the Father and is the second person of The Trinity?

Item 3) I get everything that you say. I know that the Father was living in the son. Don't forget that he did have to give up glory. But the bible also says that we are to call no man on earth father right. So, knowing this, the verse that says that Jesus is to be called "everlasting Father" tells us that he must actually be the Father. Why? Well because we are to call any man other than the actual Father in heaven...Father. Now why would the Bible be telling us to only call God in heaven Father and Jesus on earth Father and still tell us not to call any one but the Father in heaven Father? That just doesn't make sense....unless....Jesus is God. Which he is.

Ans. Let’s see why the Bible can call Jesus “everlasting Father” and in what frame of reference as clearly you lack an adequate understanding of this phrase. Now we understand that The Son is not The Father. So why does it say in Isaiah 9:6 that The Son will be called “Everlasting Father”? Let’s look at some scripture, John 17:22-26 AV, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.” “ Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” (John 14:10 AV); The Father dwells in the Son, so now we know why The Son is “called” Everlasting Father, because the Everlasting Father is in the Son. So the understanding is: If I come to The Son and say to him “Father”, he will reply, Yes, Son?”. But why is he called the mighty God? The Father is the Almighty God, so if I come to The Son and say to him “mighty God”, he will reply, “Yes, what can I do for you?”. This is because the Almighty God (YHWH) dwells in The Son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves). To sumarize, I will provide some scripture for a further understanding, “ Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.” (Colossians 1:12-29 AV), “ And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.” (1 John 5:20 AV), and this is one of my favorite scriptures that explains that The True God is in The Son, and we are in The True God who is in The Son, try reading the scriptures above where the Father is in The Son and we in The Father and we in The Son. So now the understanding is clear that the Son is not the Almighty God (YHWH), and the Son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves), is not the Everlasting Father. Let the truth be known, “ Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:” (Deuteronomy 6:4 AV), this is Unsullied Monotheism That Does Not Support Unity For Another.

For more information go to the resources mentioned in these writings and especially to the following Links: (sarajane, please go to these links and start learning instead of posting confused post) http://philologos.org/__eb-ttb/default.htm (The Two Babylons, by Rev. Alexander Hilsop) http://reslight.addr.com/greatdebate.html (The Great Debate Regarding The Father, Son & Holy Spirit; An exhaustive verse-by-verse, side-by-side; by Roger Wagner) http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/bsl/Library/Doctrine/Trinity/Debate/TGD1.pdf (book on great trinitarian/arius debate on line) http://www.christianeducational.org/faq/v1i3.pdf http://www.antipas.org/magazine/editor/trinity/letter1.html (against Trinity clearly shows father and son different) http://www.tellway-publishing.com ("Jesus-God or the Son of God?" by Brian Holt – one of the best) http://members.aol.com/hector3001/christology.htm

Item 4)Now even without what I just told you. 1 Timothy 3:16 still says that "great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh." Now what does this mean? Well, it doesn't need to be interpreted, it is in plain english and states that our God was made flesh. God made flesh. hmmm must be Jesus. There is no arguing with this fact. I do hope you will understand. Just don't expect to understand everything perfectly. God is a bit above us and our puny human minds just can't comprehend him fully. We are to trust like little children. Questioning how God could be is not doing that now is it?

Ans. “ And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.” (1 Timothy 3:16 AV)

First to fully understand this scripture which is perhaps one of the least understood in the Bible it is necessary to examine the scripture before it “ But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15 AV), This brings out the need to examine our faith, when a church ceases to be the pillar and ground of truth, we should forsake her; this is so as truth should be first and greatest.

Let’s examine this scripture, 1 Timothy 3:16, by parts.
a) “And evidently great is the mystery of godliness,” This is the mystery of godliness in Christ, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves). Eventually when “ But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,” (Galatians 4:4 AV), “ Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,” (Romans 16:25 AV). His primary purpose for his coming was to provide a ransom for all of mankind “ Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:” (Romans 5:12 AV). Also, Jesus came “ Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.” (Matthew 20:28 AV). This delivered the definitive answer to the issue raised by God’s Adversary that he could turn all men against God (YHWH) “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. 8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? 9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? 10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. 11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.” (Job 1:7-11 AV) and provided the means for redeeming obedient mankind from sin and death through the ransom sacrifice of his Son.

b) “which was manifested in the flesh,” God (YHWH) was pleased to manifest his qualities by having his own son, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves), take on the nature of a man, “ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14 AV). When he was on earth in the flesh, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” (Philipians 2:5-8 AV), remember, “ Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.” (1 Corinthians 15:34 AV).

c) “was justified in the spirit,” Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) Christ, after maintaining his faithfulness until death, was “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.” (1 Corinthians 15:42-45 AV), “ For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:” (1 Peter 3:18 AV). He was “(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:” (Romans 1:24 AV). Christ was raised again by the Spirit, and so was justified from all the false charges made against him.

d) “appeared unto angels,” Angels ministered to him, for he is the Lord of angels “ Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” (1 Peter 3:22 AV). These were made subject to him, Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) so he could carry out the assignment given to him by his Father (YHWH), “20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” (1 Corinthians 15:20-28 AV).

e) “hath been preached unto the Gentiles,” The Gentiles welcomed the gospel which the Jews rejected, and await “ For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:” (Romans 6:5 AV). We must, “If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;” (Colossians 1:23-25 AV). God’s (YHWH’s) active force or Holy Ghost was sent to his followers “ Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.” (1 Peter 1:12 AV).

f) “is believed in the world.” Let us remember that God through his son was manifest in the flesh, to take away our sins, to redeem us from all iniquity, and to purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These doctrines must be shown forth by the fruits of the Spirit in our lives “ Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:” (Colossians 1:6 AV). However, we must be constantly alert because, “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. 3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not. 4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;” (2 Peter 2:1-4 AV).

g) “is taken up in glory.” Jesus (Jeshua or YHWH saves) Christ now sits at the right hand of God (YHWH) in Heaven itself “ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.” (Mark 16:19 AV), “ And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.” (Luke 24:51 AV), “ What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?” (John 6:62 AV), “ Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;” (John 13:3 AV), “ I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28 AV), “ And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” (John 17:5 AV), “ Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:” (Acts 1:2 AV), “ He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)” (Ephesians 4:10 AV), “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;” (Hebrews 1:2-3 AV), “ Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;” (Hebrews 8:1 AV), “ Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” (Hebrews 12:2 AV), “ Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.” (1 Peter 3:22 AV)
As can be seen, you are a little confused with respect your understanding of this scripture as you are with much of the Bible.

Item 5)Who are you and I to say that who he is, is impossible? We have no right. We just don't.
I know that you think that Jesus was some god but not the God. Well, that is breaking a commandment.

Ans. It matters not what you thing or I think, it only matters what the Bible says and for that reason all need to open your mind and get a better understanding.

Now with respect whether Jesus is Divine:

Discourse on the Whether Christ is Divine:

Many claim are made with respect the Divinity of Jesus Christ, but when we use a little reasoning on the subject it is seen as much ado about nothing.

Sure he is divine as clearly shown by common sense as follows:

The son of a dog is a dog; whereas, a son of Almighty God (YHWH) is of course a god or godlike thus divine. This is clearly shown by the meaning of the word as follows:

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
divine (GOD-LIKE) adjective
connected with a god, or like a god:
The Ayatollah described the earthquake in Iran as a divine test.
Some fans seem to regard footballers as divine beings.
England have fallen so far behind in the championship that their only hope of victory is divine intervention (= help from God).
Just because you've been promoted that doesn't give you a divine right (= one like that of a god) to tell us all what to do.

Oxford Dictionary
divine = /d"van/ adjective (-r, -st) 1 of, from, or like God or a god; sacred. 2 colloquial excellent. verb (-ning) 1 discover by intuition or guessing. 2 foresee. 3 practise divination. noun theologian. divining-rod dowser's forked twig. divinely adverb.

Wordsmyth Dictionary
1. a religious scholar or clergyman. Similar Words exegete , minister , cleric , clergyman , bishop , theologian , prelate , priest , religious
2. Definition 2. (cap.) God (usu. prec. by the). Synonyms Godhead {godhead (2)} , Divinity {divinity (2)} , Omnipotent {omnipotent} , Omniscient {omniscient} , God {god (2)} , Deity {deity (4)} Similar Words celestial
3. Definition 3. (sometimes cap.) the spiritual or godlike, as opposed to the earthly or worldly. Similar Words divinity

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. Divine
SYLLABICATION: di·vine
PRONUNCIATION:
/61/wavs/43/D0304300.wav/61/wavs/43/D0304300.wavd-vn ADJECTIVE: Inflected forms: di·vin·er, di·vin·est
1a. Having the nature of or being a deity. b. Of, relating to, emanating from, or being the expression of a deity: sought divine guidance through meditation. c. Being in the service or worship of a deity; sacred. 2. Superhuman; godlike. 3a. Supremely good or beautiful; magnificent: a divine performance of the concerto. b. Extremely pleasant; delightful: had a divine time at the ball. 4. Heavenly; perfect. NOUN: 1. A cleric. 2. A theologian. VERB: Inflected forms: di·vined, di·vin·ing, di·vines
TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To foretell through or as if through the art of divination. See synonyms at foretell. 2a. To know by inspiration, intuition, or reflection. b. To guess. 3. To locate (underground water or minerals) with a divining rod; douse. INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To practice divination. 2. To guess. ETYMOLOGY: Middle English, from Old French devine, from Latin dvnus, divine, foreseeing, from dvus, god. See dyeu- in Appendix I. V., Middle English divinen, from Old French deviner, from Latin dvnre, from dvnus.

A very intense subject easily put to rest by a little common sense and reasoning.

Your Friend Iris89, Ordained Minister of the Gospel

PS: this will probably be among the last post I will be answering as I am going where I will have limited or no access to the Internet, but for those who wish to learn, I have left behind me much to learn from.
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Neither the sword of popes...nor the image of death will halt the march of truth."Francis David, 1579, written on the wall of his prison cell."

rondoggy · Ferret Joined: 12 Mar 2003 Posts: 124

Thou shalt not have any other gods before me.
And yet according to John 1:1 in the New World Translation Jesus is there as the Word called a god.
If is not God but a god we then have a contradiction for we are not to have or worship any other gods.
If he is in fact the true God ( Father, Son and Holy Ghost), then we are ok for we are then worshipping the one True GOD.
Sorry Iris but you can cut anpaste all of the so called scholarly works of everyone you possibly can and it still does not jive with the what the Holy Scriptures say.
Jesus is God. The Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God.
There is no lesser god in God.
Ron
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Ron
" The best is yet to come!"

Phinehas

Iris, in an attempt to better understand your beliefs, I hope you will indulge me as I probe you a bit regarding them.

ON YESHUA'S DIVINITY
In accordance with
Isaiah 43:10 "...Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me,"
Isaiah 44:6 "...I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God,"
Micah 5:2 "...out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times," and Colossians 1:16-17 "For by [Yeshua] all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things,..."
(1) when was Yeshua formed, and
(2) who formed Yeshua?

MORE ON YESHUA'S DIVINITY
In accordance with
Philippians 2:5-11 "...Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father,"
(1) Was Yeshua, prior to his first coming, in very nature YHWH?
(2) Did Yeshua, prior to his first coming, have equality with YHWH?
(3) Did YHWH exalt Yeshua to the highest position and give him the highest name?
(4) Is it the name YHWH or the name Yeshua at which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Yeshua is their absolute and ultimate master?

ON GOD'S GLORY
In accordance with
Mark 8:38 "If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his Father's glory with the holy angels,"
John 17:5 "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began," and
John 17:10 "All I have is yours, and all you have is mine,"
(1) Is the glory of YHWH the same glory that Yeshua had before Yeshua's first coming?
(2) Is the glory of YHWH the same glory that Yeshua has today and will have when He returns?

MORE ON GOD'S GLORY
In accordance with
Isaiah 42:8 "I am the LORD ; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols" and
Isaiah 48:11 "...I will not yield my glory to another,"
(1) How can YHWH not give His glory to another and yet give it to Yeshua?

I've tried to be as brief as possible, omitting non-relevant portions of quoted verses and keeping my questions short and to the point. Please try to be brief also.

Thank you,
Phin
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“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

philer · Little Goldfish Joined: 13 Feb 2003 Posts: 54

It seems to me that men have trouble understanding who jesus is that is causing confusion. In john it is quite clear that the WORD of God was made flesh,this WORD of God came from God and is part of God therefor still God. Not two Gods or a trinity,it is a monothiestic religion, as God stated in the old testament he is God and there is no savior beside him,this quite plainly brings us down to one being God who has a spirit "holy spirit", his son which is his WORD made flesh,sacrificed and resurrected, this is how God made all things he "SPOKE" all things into existance, speaking his WORD all things were made by his WORD. This may be only my understanding of it,but it seems quite plain to me,trinities or Two Gods dont apply,i take God for his word and believe him that he is GOD and there is no God beside him.