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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
| Quote: | | But isn't it extremely coincidental that atavisms are ALWAYS traits from ancestors HIGHER up in what evolutionary biologists tell us is the evolutionary tree, and that they are NEVER traits from creatures a few branches over? |
What is DNA and how is it different for each species? Is it completely different materials for every animal? |
I don't know what kind of detail you want me to go into, but here it goes:
DNA is a very, very long molecule. When you unwind it, it looks a little bit like a ladder. The important part of it are the base pairs inside it that look like the rungs of the ladder. There are four different types of bases: A, C, G, and T. A pairs with T, and C pairs with G.
Different creatures can have entirely different DNA. For example, E.Coli has a genome which contains 4.6 million base pairs. Humans (and other higher creatures) have genomes which contain 3 billion or so base pairs.
So to answer your question about whether or not DNA is completely different material for each animal, the answer is that it depends on what you are asking. All DNA contains A C G T bases, and its structure is identical. The only difference between the DNA of different creatures is the length of the genome, as well as the order of the bases. That said, they can be extremely different. For example, humans don't have very much DNA in common with E.Coli (although we do have some), but our genomes are VERY similar to those of chimps and other monkies and apes.
In general, the difference between the genomes of two species is proportional to how far apart they are in the evolutionary tree. This was one of the MAJOR academic results supporting macroevolution; the fact that DNA so closely corresponds to how the taxonomists categorized the animal kingdom silenced the last few skeptics of evolutionary theory in mainstream science.
All creatures in the evolutionary tree have vestigial DNA from their ancestors. For example, we have DNA for a tail in our bodies that is turned off. This is where atavisms come in: sometimes the vestigial DNA in a creature's body gets turned on again, and the result is an atavism. Documented examples include humans with real tails, horses with toes, whales with hind legs, as well as others.
You suggested that original sin corrupted the world and our genomes, and that is why some creatures have atavisms, but I suggested that this is an extremely unlikely explanation, since atavisms are ALWAYS traits from our ancestors, and never from creatures elsewhere in the evolutionary tree. If your theory were true, this would be FAR too coincidental. Macroevolution is a much better explanation.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 6:58 pm Post subject: |
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Good information P, I appreciate it. What I see from your post is that DNA is basically the same material for everything with slightly different (or vastly different considering the change on base pair can make if it is altered...), anyway, DNA is a blueprint, made of the same stuff for everything living, but with different internal structures - structures which are made of the same bases, but in different sequences.
Sounds to me like a wonderful tool to develop all life. One master blueprint which can be altered internally to create a different animal, quite a wonderful design actually.
| Quote: | | but I suggested that this is an extremely unlikely explanation, since atavisms are ALWAYS traits from our ancestors, and never from creatures elsewhere in the evolutionary tree. If your theory were true, this would be FAR too coincidental. Macroevolution is a much better explanation. |
I just threw this in because I wasn't sure if you understood the concept of circular reasoning. "Atavisms are ALWAYS traits from our ancestors" and this is explained by macroevolution, but unless you assume macroevolution it cannot explain avatisms, but avatisms support macroevolution.... Hmmmm 
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Good information P, I appreciate it. What I see from your post is that DNA is basically the same material for everything with slightly different (or vastly different considering the change on base pair can make if it is altered...), anyway, DNA is a blueprint, made of the same stuff for everything living, but with different internal structures - structures which are made of the same bases, but in different sequences.
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Yes, exactly. There are all sorts of other details which are important, like HOW your DNA actually encodes how big your nose should be, and so on. If you want, I can ramble on about that a bit as well.
| RevJP wrote: |
Sounds to me like a wonderful tool to develop all life. One master blueprint which can be altered internally to create a different animal, quite a wonderful design actually.
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Yes, it's a breathtakingly elegant aspect of life. That all life on the planet works in basically the same way is just amazing. If it weren't for the fact that DNA can get longer and shorter via mutation and that all of the evidence suggests that there used to be only a small variety of DNA strands, and if DNA weren't such a terrible mess, this would be a very good argument for intelligent design.
| RevJP wrote: |
I just threw this in because I wasn't sure if you understood the concept of circular reasoning. "Atavisms are ALWAYS traits from our ancestors" and this is explained by macroevolution, but unless you assume macroevolution it cannot explain avatisms, but avatisms support macroevolution.... Hmmmm |
I wasn't trying to make the argument sound like that. I was actually going for something more along the lines of: the DNA evidence and atavisms are totally consistent with macroevolution, and macroevolution is the only explanation that anyone has ever come up with that even begins to explain this evidence. In contrast, atavisms seem to be inconsistent with creationism, and they seem to disprove it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In contrast, atavisms seem to be inconsistent with creationism, and they seem to disprove it. |
Only if you off-handidly dismiss the propostion I offered...
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 3:39 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | In contrast, atavisms seem to be inconsistent with creationism, and they seem to disprove it. |
Only if you off-handidly dismiss the propostion I offered... |
Which proposition? That God used a basic blueprint?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 6:33 am Post subject: |
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I just want to bump this thread back up. I really don't think that the believers here have adequately addressed the issue of atavisms. They are a real problem for creationism, and no creationist seems to have a good explanation for them.
In contrast, evolutionary theory has EXCELLENT explanations for them.
Where I come from, a theory is only good if it can explain observations. Creationism as a theory doesn't seem to do that in this case, so it seems to be a bad theory...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | and no creationist seems to have a good explanation for them. |
Define 'good explanation'. I provided an excellent explanation, you just didn't like it. What constitutes good as far as you are concerened?
| Quote: | | Creationism as a theory doesn't seem to do that in this case, so it seems to be a bad theory... |
This is probably because Creationism is not a theory, it is truth.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Define 'good explanation'. I provided an excellent explanation, you just didn't like it. What constitutes good as far as you are concerened? |
"Genetic corruption from The Fall" (correct me if that wasn't your "excellent explanation") doesn't explain why atavisms only show from ancestral branches.
| TO wrote: | | Based on our standard phylogenetic tree, we may expect to find gill pouches or egg shells at some point in mammalian embryonic development (and we do). However, we never expect to find nipples, hair, or a middle-ear incus bone at any point in fish, amphibian, or reptilian embryos. Likewise, we might expect to find teeth in the mouths of some avian embryos (as we do), but we never expect to find bird-like beaks in eutherian mammal embryos (eutherians are placental mammals such as humans, cows, dogs, or rabbits). We may expect to find human embryos with tails (and we do; see Figure 2.3.1), but we never expect to find leg buds or developing limbs in the embryos of manta rays, eels, teleost fish, or sharks. Any such findings would be in direct contradiction to macroevolutionary theory. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
| Quote: | | Creationism as a theory doesn't seem to do that in this case, so it seems to be a bad theory... |
This is probably because Creationism is not a theory, it is truth. |
Says you.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | Define 'good explanation'. I provided an excellent explanation, you just didn't like it. What constitutes good as far as you are concerened? |
"Genetic corruption from The Fall" (correct me if that wasn't your "excellent explanation") doesn't explain why atavisms only show from ancestral branches.
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That's right. I want a scripture-based explanation for why atavisms only come from ancestors on the path to the root of the phylogenetic tree, and why they NEVER come from other branches.
The genetic corruption from the The Fall argument might partially explain why our DNA is such a mess, but it doesn't explain atavisms at all.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | "Genetic corruption from The Fall" (correct me if that wasn't your "excellent explanation") doesn't explain why atavisms only show from ancestral branches. |
Ancestral branches? that falls under the assumption of evolution and is irrelevant to this discussion.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
Ancestral branches? that falls under the assumption of evolution and is irrelevant to this discussion. |
Yeah right RevJP, you're not getting off that easy.
There are two competing explanations for how life came about on Earth. One is evolution, and the other is creation.
It just so happens that atavisms are explained very well by evolution, but to my knowledge they are not explained by creationism. I want to know if I am wrong and if there is any sort of reasonable biblical explanation for them.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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I can't explain it if you refuse to listen. I have already given you the explanation, I cannot help it if you do not like it.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
I can't explain it if you refuse to listen. I have already given you the explanation, I cannot help it if you do not like it. |
You're not going into enough detail. Please spell-it out for me. How does the corruption of creation explain atavisms? How does the corruption of our genome explain the MASSIVE coincidence that atavisms are ALWAYS traits from WHAT EVOLUTIONISTS SAY are the ancestors of the creatures in which the atavisms are found?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Tue May 02, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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Wow! I've just read this entire thread. And I actually leared a great deal about science, atavisms, genomes, DNA and more.
P. I have to say that you have done your homework and it is difficult to refute the experts. Now, you have me wondering (not about my faith, of course) about how could this seeming contradiction be answered.
Rev, I understand your frustration when debating those who haven't the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Hang in there.
I'm going to ask God, when I see Him, if He'll explain it to me and why He created all these seeming controversial things of science.
Flashman
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You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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