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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:40 am Post subject: Another problem with creationism... |
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Here's another problem with creationism: if creationism were true, then Adam and Eve would have been the first two people, and they peopled the Earth. This could only happen with a MASSIVE amount of incest. The Bible preaches against incest, but seems to think that incest was fine with respect to Biblical figures.
Many of these early figures are praised in the Bible, but they conveniently forget what kind of debauched incest was going on!
So go ahead and add incest to the list of things that the Bible both allows and forbids.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Another problem with creationism... |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Here's another problem with creationism: if creationism were true, then Adam and Eve would have been the first two people, and they peopled the Earth. This could only happen with a MASSIVE amount of incest.
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How do you know that God didn't create others after Adam and Eve? God's a smart Person. He's not like us mere people. Only us humans would think sick enough to believe that God thought incest would be good and then tell us it was bad.
Flash
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:41 am Post subject: Re: Another problem with creationism... |
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| Flashman wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | Here's another problem with creationism: if creationism were true, then Adam and Eve would have been the first two people, and they peopled the Earth. This could only happen with a MASSIVE amount of incest.
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How do you know that God didn't create others after Adam and Eve? God's a smart Person. He's not like us mere people. Only us humans would think sick enough to believe that God thought incest would be good and then tell us it was bad.
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Because in the Bible it gives a whole line of who begat who. It's all completely incestuous.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: |
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So you are asserting that the bible gives a list of everyone who has ever lived?
Funny that. It seems to me the bible traces the lineage of a very specific people and does not really address the issue beyond that.
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | So you are asserting that the bible gives a list of everyone who has ever lived?
Funny that. It seems to me the bible traces the lineage of a very specific people and does not really address the issue beyond that. |
Do you agree or disagree that Adam and Eve peopled the Earth?
Do you believe that God created other humans besides Adam and Eve, or that all humans are the descendants of Adam and Eve?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:22 am Post subject: |
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By the way, I totally screwed up when I posted this here; it should have been in the Creationism vs. Evolution debate forum. Can someone with admin powers move it? Thanks!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 10:41 am Post subject: |
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It will be moved.
However, Mr. P. You failed to answer my questions, you responded with questions - which are not answers. Please, let us try not to divert the discussion and stick with the courtesy of responding to the questions offered.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: |
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I've just searched everywhere I know, using my concordance, and I can't find any place in it that would lead me to believe that Adam and Eve populated the earth.
They were the *first*, for sure. Then there is some mention of Adam and Eve's offspring and their spouses, but I've always wondered where those spouses came from. 
Now, there is also no mention of God creating other humans from other than birth. But it would be just like Him, to create other humans and not tell us. Like Him creating chiggers...no mention. <itch...itch>
That's one of those unexplained things that I can probably live with until I get to ask Him myself.
On the question of incest: There are several examples (my favorite being the one where the daughter gets her dad drunk to have a baby), but it was sinful according to the account. I believe that was before Moses "laid down the law" about all that, so dad just cast her away from him. The kid became famous...
But, Rev is right about the lineage thing. That was specific to certain Bible figures and they don't all go way back to Adam. Some stop at King Saul, or Noah.
Flash
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | It will be moved.
However, Mr. P. You failed to answer my questions, you responded with questions - which are not answers. Please, let us try not to divert the discussion and stick with the courtesy of responding to the questions offered. |
Sorry, I thought that
| RevJP wrote: |
So you are asserting that the bible gives a list of everyone who has ever lived? |
Was a rhtorical question, and obviously the answer is no.
Now for my question:
Do you believe that God created other humans besides Adam and Eve, or that all humans are the descendants of Adam and Eve?
If Adam and Eve peopled the Earth, then there was definitely a huge amount of incest going on. If, on the other hand, God created other people like Flashman suggests, then the authors of the Bible sure slipped up by forgetting to mention them...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If Adam and Eve peopled the Earth, then there was definitely a huge amount of incest going on. If, on the other hand, God created other people like Flashman suggests, then the authors of the Bible sure slipped up by forgetting to mention them... |
I'm not answering for the Rev, but remember not everything that ever happened is in the bible. Remember the chigger thing I mentioned?
On to you Rev...
Flash
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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The primary argument I hear against this is that incest wasn't a big deal back then.
Besides, Eve is basically a female clone of Adam anyway. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
I'm not answering for the Rev, but remember not everything that ever happened is in the bible. Remember the chigger thing I mentioned?
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I agree completely. But you're opening up a can of worms here. Maybe macroevolution happened, but like you say, not everything that ever happened is in the Bible.
If you're willing to believe that someone just forgot to write the sentence, "...and God created many more people, so no incest was necessary to people the Earth.", then it becomes reasonable to believe that someone also forgot to write the sentence, "... and the means by which God created man in His image was macroevolution."
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The primary argument I hear against this is that incest wasn't a big deal back then. |
I think this is supported by what Flashman said:
| Quote: | | I believe that was before Moses "laid down the law" about all that |
| Quote: | | I agree completely. But you're opening up a can of worms here. Maybe macroevolution happened, but like you say, not everything that ever happened is in the Bible. |
The problem, partially, is that one assumes that Adam and Eve only begat Cain and Abel. Adam and Eve were undying until the fall, they could have had thousands upon thousands of children - we just do not know (remember the curse which God explained which resulted from their disobedience? Eve's childbearing was to be more painful - an indication that she understood childbearing already.)
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: |
Besides, Eve is basically a female clone of Adam anyway. |
Gross! I never thought of it this way before! It's like making a female clone of yourself and then having sex with it! Nasty! That's even worse than incest!
I take all the stuff I said about incest back; apparently there's no need for that argument. We've got a much better argument brewing right here!
Are any of the believers here grossed out by this take on things?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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Having sex with oneself? Nope, not at all - I'm too self-centered to be grossed out by that. 
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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