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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: Atavisms |
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I challenge any creationist here to come up with an explanation for atavisms which is anywhere near as good as the standard evolutionary explanation.
Also, while you're at it, I've got a really burning question: creationists constantly say that there is no evidence for macroevolution. We evolutionists constantly reply that there is plenty of evidence, including fossils. Here's the question: exactly what don't you like about the fossils? Why are they not evidence? How come the successively more upright homonid fossils that are found are not evidence that humans were evolving from lower primates?
A standard creationist argument is that nobody has ever witnesed macroevolution, so there is no evidence for it. Nobody ever witnessed dinosaurs walking the Earth, and yet we believe in them based PURELY on fossil evidence... With respect to macroevolution, we have plenty of evidence such as DNA and atavisms ON TOP of the fossil evidence, so if anything, it is stronger than the case for dinosaurs!
So why are you willing to believe the fossils when they tell us that dinosaurs existed, but you're not willing to believe the fossils, DNA, atavisms, and other evidence when they tell us that macroevolution is fact???
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 2:15 am Post subject: |
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Keep it simple.
Creationists: explain atavisms first. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Keep it simpler: Evolutionists define atavisms first 
| P wrote: | | creationists constantly say that there is no evidence for macroevolution |
Allow me to insert a correction here, for I think you err'd in this statement (it must have been an error because I don't think you would have intentionally espoused an untruth...)
creationist have not said there is no evidence for macroevolution. Creationists have stated, repeatedly that there is no PROOF of macroevoltion, to which you reply, repeatedly that there is TONS of evidence. To which I've replied that the evidence does not prove macroevolution without the underlying assumption that such must be the case. Without that underlying assumption, other conclusions can be drawn which do not include macroevolution.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Keep it simpler: Evolutionists define atavisms first
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Atavisms are when vestigial DNA becomes activated and is expressed. For example, horses have DNA for toes. You and every other human has dna for a tail. There are many documented cases of humans with atavistic tails, horses with atavistic toes, whales with atavistic hind legs, etc.
Evolution does an EXCELLENT job explaining why atavisms happen: our ancient ancestors had the DNA for tails, and that DNA got passed down to us, and can be reactivated.
In contrast, creationism does a terrible job explaining why atavisms happen.
| RevJP wrote: |
| P wrote: | | creationists constantly say that there is no evidence for macroevolution |
Allow me to insert a correction here, for I think you err'd in this statement (it must have been an error because I don't think you would have intentionally espoused an untruth...)
creationist have not said there is no evidence for macroevolution. Creationists have stated, repeatedly that there is no PROOF of macroevoltion, to which you reply, repeatedly that there is TONS of evidence. To which I've replied that the evidence does not prove macroevolution without the underlying assumption that such must be the case. Without that underlying assumption, other conclusions can be drawn which do not include macroevolution. |
RevJP, you seem to be one of the only creationists around who is so specific and clear on this issue. I would say that MOST creationists don't just think that there is a lack of proof connecting the evidence and conclusion, but rather that there is a total lack of evidence.
But I am perfectly willing to accept your correction. So please tell us what these erroneous assumptions that evolutionists make are.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would say that MOST creationists don't just think that there is a lack of proof connecting the evidence and conclusion, but rather that there is a total lack of evidence. |
In this respect I would assert that most creationists think there is a lack of convincing, or reliable, evidence.
| Quote: | | So please tell us what these erroneous assumptions that evolutionists make are. |
Respectfully, we have discussed this ad nauseum and I really do not wish to voice my opinions on it for the 4th, 5th, 6th, or more, time.
You can read what I have said about it in almost every thread in creation/evolution forum.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Ok, well what about atavisms, then?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I have no opinion on them to be honest.
I have a bone spur - is that an atavism?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Probably just a calcium deposit of some sort, I've got one under my left eye. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I have no opinion on them to be honest.
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They don't bother you?
Do you disagree that they are very good evidence for macroevolution?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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No they don't bother me. I'm sure if I had a vestigial tail or something I would be uncomfortable sitting down...
| Quote: | | Do you disagree that they are very good evidence for macroevolution? |
Actually yes, I do disagree. As they are they are evidence for a corrupted genome and we know from scripture that God's creation was corrupted through original sin, that is why we have disease, death, etc.
Now then, if I were looking for anything and everything that might be an indication of evolution I could see how I would want to consider it as 'good' evidence. But if I don't have a preconcieved agenda in mind (read assumption) then they are not evidence of anything more than what I indicated in the paragraph above.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | As they are they are evidence for a corrupted genome and we know from scripture that God's creation was corrupted through original sin, that is why we have disease, death, etc. |
Do you have scriptural support for this, then?
| RevJP wrote: | | But if I don't have a preconcieved agenda in mind (read assumption) then they are not evidence of anything more than what I indicated in the paragraph above. |
Isn't what you indicated in the paragraph above a "preconceived agenda?" |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7610
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Actually yes, I do disagree. As they are they are evidence for a corrupted genome and we know from scripture that God's creation was corrupted through original sin, that is why we have disease, death, etc.
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But isn't it extremely coincidental that atavisms are ALWAYS traits from ancestors HIGHER up in what evolutionary biologists tell us is the evolutionary tree, and that they are NEVER traits from creatures a few branches over?
If your corrupted genome theory were true, wouldn't we expect to find all sorts of random atavisms such as reptilian scales or gills or something like that? But we don't; all we find is atavisms from direct ancestors.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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FFT: Genesis and Romans to start with.
| Quote: | | But isn't it extremely coincidental that atavisms are ALWAYS traits from ancestors HIGHER up in what evolutionary biologists tell us is the evolutionary tree, and that they are NEVER traits from creatures a few branches over? |
What is DNA and how is it different for each species? Is it completely different materials for every animal?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6087
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | FFT: Genesis and Romans to start with. |
Genesis doesn't say anything about corruption. It says that the ground will not be as plentiful as before. Do you refer to Romans 8? None of the passages speak of corruption, only decay. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6899
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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Read it again. Maybe you could read it with a heart for understanding rather than a mind to find fault. It is amazing what one can learn and understand if one truly desires understanding.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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