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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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 Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | HGP,
Please answer consisely,because in your lengthy answers you contradict yourself which makes this even more confusing.
When Jesus was on earth,was he the Father?
Do you believe the human Jesus was both man and God?
If God is one person,how is it that you split Him up as two seperate people with different wills?
Your description is of 2 seperate people,yet you say they are the same person.
After Jesus was resurrected do you still believe God has this duel nature?
Again,please answer as short as possible so I can clearly understand how you believe. |
This isn't really short...but it gives a CLEAR explanation to the Oneness doctrine that we believe...
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE FATHER IN CREATION
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen. 1:1. No one else but God performed the miracle of creation. And God said, "Let us make man in our image..." Gen. 1:26. To use the word "us" and try to form other Gods in the creation, clashes not only with the Scriptures, but with common sense. The word God means Supreme Being, the eternal and infinite Spirit, Creator and Sovereign of the universe. There cannot be more than one Supreme Being. By no means was God talking or counseling with other Gods. He was counseling with His own will. Eph. 1:11. In the creation of man, God, the eternal Spirit, foresaw the image or the Son in which He would some day reveal Himself to man. The Son did not exist at the creation. "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law." Gal. 4:4. The Son, who is the image of God, was made thousands of years after the creation. Also God spoke of things which be not as though they were. Ram. 4:17. "So Gad created man in HIS OWN IMAGE," Gen. 1:27. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that hod not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come. Ram 5:14. God, referring to the Sonship, made Adam in the figure of Him that was to come.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. The Word cannot be separated from God. The term "Word" is derived from the Greek term "logis" which means "thought or plan". God’s thoughts are with Him, but they cannot be separated from Him. "The Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD." "All things were made by Him (Word); and without Him (Word) was not anything made that was made." John 1:3. "...The worlds were framed by the Word of God..." Heb. 11:3. So by His Word God created all things.
"Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Is. 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Is. 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Is. 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO GOD WITH ME..." Deut. 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Mal. 2:10.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE SON IN REDEMPTION
A blood sacrifice without sin must be made for the redemption of man. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Heb. 9:22. So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, made Himself a body born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word (which was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1,14. This body was the only begotten Son or image of God. Paul said that the Son is the image (body) of the invisible God. Col.1 :13-15.The Sonship was planned from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) and prophesied as early as Gen. 3:15. Hundreds of years later Isaiah prophesied," ...Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel...which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Is. 7:14; Matt. 1:23. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Is. 9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sin.. and he called His name JESUS." Matt. 1:21-25. Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
The name Jesus was not revealed until God made Himself a body. Until then He was called Jehovah. For example:
Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
When God made Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then was called JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.
The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day.. .0 Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Compare the following:
The Lord God is the Creator. Is. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, "I am He." Is. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Is. 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. P5. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Is. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Lost. Is. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Rev. 1:8.
There is only one Lord. Eph. 4:5. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who art thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, ".. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works...Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME..." John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30.
Jesus emphasized the importance of His identity as He taught the people in the temple. He said, "...For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.. .They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased."
Matt. 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto
Himself..." II Cor. 5:19.
As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55. The term "right hand" does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of the power and authority of God. Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt. 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God. I Cor. 1:24. Note the following symbolical uses of the term "right hand" as correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Is. 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Ps. 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Is. 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. PS. 16:8.
The question may be asked, "Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?" If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, "For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER." Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, "O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT." Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, "My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, "I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10)." As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark
13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
DIVINE
Everlasting Father - Is. 9:6
Chief Shepherd - I Pet. 5:4
King of Kings - Rev. 17,14
Lord God - John 20:28
The Almighty - Rev. 1:8
HUMAN
Son of Man - Luke 9:22
Lamb - I Pet. 1:19
Servant - Phil. 2:7
High Priest - Heb. 2:17
Mediator - I Tim. 2:5
"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." I Tim. 3:16. How clearly brought out is this glorious truth that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh. He became Spirit in body to bring redemption to man.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE HOLY GHOST IN EMANATION
God, the eternal Spirit, is "Omni-present" - everywhere at the same time; therefore, His Substance fills the universe. The only way God can manifest Himself in the hearts of people today is by the process of emanation. To emanate is to issue forth from a source. As the Holy Spirit, God is issuing forth from His Substance to fill the hearts of people today.
The Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Father, for it is a part of His Substance. That which was conceived in the virgin Mary was of the Holy Ghost. Matt. 1:20. The truth becomes evident that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son. To try to separate the Father and the Holy Spirit and form two Persons, would give the Son two Fathers, which is impossible. Definitely the Father and the Holy Spirit would have to be the same Spirit.
There is only ONE SPIRIT. Eph. 4:4. "For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body..." 1 Cor. 12:13. The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "This spake He (Jesus) of the SPIRIT, which they that believe on Him should receive: far the HOLY GHOST was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:39.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Father. "There is but ONE GOD, the FATHER..." I Cor. 8:6. "GOD (the Father) is a SPIRIT..." John 4:24.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is Jesus. There is ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. I Cor. 8:6. "Now the LORD (Jesus) is that SPIRIT..." II Cor. 3:17.
"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." I John 5:7.
By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person. Jesus said, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things..." John 14:26. Again Jesus said, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. John 16:7. Also John said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18. Compare John 14:26 with John 16:7; Jesus spoke of the Father and Himself as ONE. Compare John 14:26 with John 14:18. Jesus spoke of the Holy Ghost and Himself as ONE. If the Father and Jesus are one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one: then the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit are ONE. (Also compare the following Scriptures which show that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE: Matt. 10:20, Mark 13:11, Luke 21:15.) |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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HGP: Do you have anything original to add?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: | | TBax wrote: | HGP,
Please answer consisely,because in your lengthy answers you contradict yourself which makes this even more confusing.
When Jesus was on earth,was he the Father?
Do you believe the human Jesus was both man and God?
If God is one person,how is it that you split Him up as two seperate people with different wills?
Your description is of 2 seperate people,yet you say they are the same person.
After Jesus was resurrected do you still believe God has this duel nature?
Again,please answer as short as possible so I can clearly understand how you believe. |
This isn't really short...but it gives a CLEAR explanation to the Oneness doctrine that we believe...
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE FATHER IN CREATION
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Gen. 1:1. No one else but God performed the miracle of creation. And God said, "Let us make man in our image..." Gen. 1:26. To use the word "us" and try to form other Gods in the creation, clashes not only with the Scriptures, but with common sense. The word God means Supreme Being, the eternal and infinite Spirit, Creator and Sovereign of the universe. There cannot be more than one Supreme Being. By no means was God talking or counseling with other Gods. He was counseling with His own will. Eph. 1:11. In the creation of man, God, the eternal Spirit, foresaw the image or the Son in which He would some day reveal Himself to man. The Son did not exist at the creation. "But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law." Gal. 4:4. The Son, who is the image of God, was made thousands of years after the creation. Also God spoke of things which be not as though they were. Ram. 4:17. "So Gad created man in HIS OWN IMAGE," Gen. 1:27. "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that hod not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of Him that was to come. Ram 5:14. God, referring to the Sonship, made Adam in the figure of Him that was to come.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." John 1:1. The Word cannot be separated from God. The term "Word" is derived from the Greek term "logis" which means "thought or plan". God’s thoughts are with Him, but they cannot be separated from Him. "The Word was with God, and the WORD WAS GOD." "All things were made by Him (Word); and without Him (Word) was not anything made that was made." John 1:3. "...The worlds were framed by the Word of God..." Heb. 11:3. So by His Word God created all things.
"Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Is. 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Is. 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Is. 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO GOD WITH ME..." Deut. 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Mal. 2:10.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE SON IN REDEMPTION
A blood sacrifice without sin must be made for the redemption of man. Without shedding of blood there is no remission of sins. Heb. 9:22. So by His plan (Word), God, the invisible Spirit, made Himself a body born of the virgin Mary, and dwelt among us. "And the Word (which was God) was made flesh, and dwelt among us..." John 1,14. This body was the only begotten Son or image of God. Paul said that the Son is the image (body) of the invisible God. Col.1 :13-15.The Sonship was planned from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8) and prophesied as early as Gen. 3:15. Hundreds of years later Isaiah prophesied," ...Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call His name Immanuel...which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US." Is. 7:14; Matt. 1:23. "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder; and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty GOD, The everlasting FATHER, The Prince of Peace." Is. 9:6. To Joseph the angel said, "...thou shall call His name JESUS: for He shall save His people from their sin.. and he called His name JESUS." Matt. 1:21-25. Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
The name Jesus was not revealed until God made Himself a body. Until then He was called Jehovah. For example:
Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
When God made Himself a body to redeem man from sin, He then was called JESUS - Jehovah-Salvation.
The angel announced, "For unto you is born this day.. .0 Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD." Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Compare the following:
The Lord God is the Creator. Is. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, "I am He." Is. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, "I am He." John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Is. 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. P5. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Is. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Lost. Is. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Rev. 1:8.
There is only one Lord. Eph. 4:5. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, "Who art thou, Lord?" And the Lord said, "I AM JESUS." Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, ".. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works...Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME..." John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, "I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30.
Jesus emphasized the importance of His identity as He taught the people in the temple. He said, "...For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.. .They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER." John 8:24-27.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, "This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased."
Matt. 3:17. Notice, God said, "IN WHOM" - not with whom! "To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto
Himself..." II Cor. 5:19.
As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55. The term "right hand" does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of the power and authority of God. Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt. 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God. I Cor. 1:24. Note the following symbolical uses of the term "right hand" as correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Is. 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Ps. 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Is. 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. PS. 16:8.
The question may be asked, "Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?" If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, "For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER." Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, "O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT." Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, "My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?" Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, "I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10)." As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark
13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
DIVINE
Everlasting Father - Is. 9:6
Chief Shepherd - I Pet. 5:4
King of Kings - Rev. 17,14
Lord God - John 20:28
The Almighty - Rev. 1:8
HUMAN
Son of Man - Luke 9:22
Lamb - I Pet. 1:19
Servant - Phil. 2:7
High Priest - Heb. 2:17
Mediator - I Tim. 2:5
"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." I Tim. 3:16. How clearly brought out is this glorious truth that Jesus Christ was God manifested in the flesh. He became Spirit in body to bring redemption to man.
GOD MANIFESTED AS THE HOLY GHOST IN EMANATION
God, the eternal Spirit, is "Omni-present" - everywhere at the same time; therefore, His Substance fills the universe. The only way God can manifest Himself in the hearts of people today is by the process of emanation. To emanate is to issue forth from a source. As the Holy Spirit, God is issuing forth from His Substance to fill the hearts of people today.
The Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the Father, for it is a part of His Substance. That which was conceived in the virgin Mary was of the Holy Ghost. Matt. 1:20. The truth becomes evident that the Holy Spirit is the Father of the Son. To try to separate the Father and the Holy Spirit and form two Persons, would give the Son two Fathers, which is impossible. Definitely the Father and the Holy Spirit would have to be the same Spirit.
There is only ONE SPIRIT. Eph. 4:4. "For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into one body..." 1 Cor. 12:13. The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Holy Ghost. "This spake He (Jesus) of the SPIRIT, which they that believe on Him should receive: far the HOLY GHOST was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified." John 7:39.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is the Father. "There is but ONE GOD, the FATHER..." I Cor. 8:6. "GOD (the Father) is a SPIRIT..." John 4:24.
The Bible proves that the ONE Spirit is Jesus. There is ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST. I Cor. 8:6. "Now the LORD (Jesus) is that SPIRIT..." II Cor. 3:17.
"There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are ONE." I John 5:7.
By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person. Jesus said, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, He shall teach you all things..." John 14:26. Again Jesus said, "...if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send Him unto you. John 16:7. Also John said, "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18. Compare John 14:26 with John 16:7; Jesus spoke of the Father and Himself as ONE. Compare John 14:26 with John 14:18. Jesus spoke of the Holy Ghost and Himself as ONE. If the Father and Jesus are one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are one: then the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit are ONE. (Also compare the following Scriptures which show that the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are ONE: Matt. 10:20, Mark 13:11, Luke 21:15.) |
KJV John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Seems pretty clear to me that God didn't come down to earth himself but that he sent his son. So how do you figure that God the Father and the son of God are the same person?
By the way, I like 1Co 8:6 which you used. "There is but ONE GOD, the FATHER" I don't see any hint of a compound deity here.
Regarding 1 John 5:7. Are you familiar with the Johannine Comma? |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5301
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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Ryck my friend, why did you quote that looong!!! post! when it's just above on the same page. takes up an awful lot of space! 
_________________
Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 4:50 am Post subject: |
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HGP,
I will try to address as many inaccuracies as I can.The fact that God says "Let us make man in our image..." proves someone else was there working with God,as a helper.Unless you are a trinitarian,there is no other pssible way to look at this.God doesn't call himself US.
The fact that Jehovah is a God of gods proves that the one working with God can be called a god, as what creation can be more powerful than the one who assisted ,or worked with God in creation.If human kings and judges are refered to as gods by God himself certainly the one who worked with God to create can be called a god.
Again the Bible shows God created through Jesus.
(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.
Proverbs 8:22 describes Jesus as Jehovah's Master worker.Also as the beginning of God's way.Yes Jesus had a beginning as Revelation 3:14 says:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
We already covered John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
If God it truly ONE,how can the Word be WITH God?
YOURS:Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Is. 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Is. 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Is. 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO GOD WITH ME..." Deut. 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Mal. 2:10.
MINE:The cotext of those verses is that the gods the nations improperly worship were not there.Maybe this will help.God IS the one that delivered Isreal from Egypt.But God delivered Isreal THROUGH Moses.Similarly,God IS the one that created all things.But God created THROUGH Jesus.The False gods of the nations were not there as Isaiah was showing.
You don't seem to like to answer questions directly,but please answer this.Do you believe Jesus was more than a man when he was on earth?
YOURS:Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
MINE:Correct,Jesus name means “Jehovah Is Salvation”.And Jehovah did provide our salvation THROUGH JESUS.Jude 25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory,
YOURS:Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
MINE:Those names were PLACES ,or locations.By containing God's name in the name of those places does not MAKE those PLACES GOD.By Jesus name meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”, that does not make Jesus =Jehovah.
JOSHUA Means “Jehovah Is Salvation" as well.That doesn't make Moses sucessor = God.Does that make sence to you?
YOURS:Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord.
MINE:That is true,however that doesn't mean he is the ONLY Lord.Deut 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords,
Jehovah is the GOD OF GODS,and LORD OF LORDS.Sarah called Abraham her lord.Does that mean Abraham is Jehovah?
Jesus WAS GIVEN all authority over the Christian congregation.That is why he is our Lord.Who do you think gave Jesus this authority?
Do I need to give the scripture for this?
YOURS:"I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30.
MINE:You don't seem to get the point.Please read CAREFULLY.John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The disciples are to be ONE.NOT MANY but ONE with Jesus and God.Do you believe God is manifested in the flesh in these disciples?You totally miss the point of John 10:30.Jesus isn't saying he is the Father any more than he is saying the Disciple are the Father.The oneness means unity in thought and purpose,not being the same person.
YOURS:Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt. 28:18.
MINE :Who gave Jesus this power?
YOURS:By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person.
MINE:I agree.The Holy Spirit is not a Person as we see in Acts SOME of IT was poured out on the disciples.The Holy Spirit is the Power God uses to accomplish his will.Something God can give to us,to help us.
Despite your lengthy explanation,you made none of my questions clear.Is that because as you said:"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:"Does this mean you cannot answer?
Is it possibly for you to answer the following question consisely?
When Jesus was on earth,was he the Father?
Do you believe the human Jesus was both man and God?
If God is one person,how is it that you split Him up as two seperate people with different wills?
Your description is of 2 seperate people,yet you say they are the same person.
After Jesus was resurrected do you still believe God has this duel nature?
Do you believe Jesus was more than a man when he was on earth?
Again,please answer as short as possible so I can clearly understand how you believe.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | HGP,
I will try to address as many inaccuracies as I can.The fact that God says "Let us make man in our image..." proves someone else was there working with God,as a helper.Unless you are a trinitarian,there is no other pssible way to look at this.God doesn't call himself US. |
Could just be royal talk. 
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 7:28 am Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | Ryck my friend, why did you quote that looong!!! post! when it's just above on the same page. takes up an awful lot of space! |
It was a tongue-in-cheek to emphasize to HGP that verbosity is no guarentee of clarity nor making the point. Even a boat with too much cargo will sink just as easily as a boat with a hole in the bottom.
But I'll not do that again.  |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 9:12 am Post subject: |
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Ryck,
I didn't understand why you did that at first either,but I certainly understand it now,and totally agree with the point you made.He wasn't at all consise,was he.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | HGP,
I will try to address as many inaccuracies as I can.The fact that God says "Let us make man in our image..." proves someone else was there working with God,as a helper.Unless you are a trinitarian,there is no other pssible way to look at this.God doesn't call himself US.
The fact that Jehovah is a God of gods proves that the one working with God can be called a god, as what creation can be more powerful than the one who assisted ,or worked with God in creation.If human kings and judges are refered to as gods by God himself certainly the one who worked with God to create can be called a god.
Again the Bible shows God created through Jesus.
(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.
Proverbs 8:22 describes Jesus as Jehovah's Master worker.Also as the beginning of God's way.Yes Jesus had a beginning as Revelation 3:14 says:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
We already covered John 1:1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.
If God it truly ONE,how can the Word be WITH God?
YOURS:Thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God Himself that formed the earth and made it...I am the LORD; and there is NONE ELSE." Is. 45:18. "...I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF." Is. 44:24. ".. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any." Is. 44:8. "See now that I, even I, am He, and there is NO GOD WITH ME..." Deut. 32:39. "Have we not all ONE Father? Hath not ONE God created us" Mal. 2:10.
MINE:The cotext of those verses is that the gods the nations improperly worship were not there.Maybe this will help.God IS the one that delivered Isreal from Egypt.But God delivered Isreal THROUGH Moses.Similarly,God IS the one that created all things.But God created THROUGH Jesus.The False gods of the nations were not there as Isaiah was showing.
You don't seem to like to answer questions directly,but please answer this.Do you believe Jesus was more than a man when he was on earth?
YOURS:Fosset’s Bible Encyclopedia declares that Jesus means Jehovah-Salvation, or Jehovah is become Saviour.
MINE:Correct,Jesus name means “Jehovah Is Salvation”.And Jehovah did provide our salvation THROUGH JESUS.Jude 25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory,
YOURS:Jehovah-Jireh - The Lord provides. Gen. 22:14.
Jehovah-Rapha - The Lord that healeth. Exod. 15:26.
Jehovah-Nissi - The Lord is our banner. Exod. 17:15.
Jehovah-Shalom - The Lord our peace. Judges 6:24.
Jehovah-Ra-ah - The Lord is my shepherd. Ps. 23.
Jehovah-Tsidkenu - The Lord our righteousness. Jer. 23:6.
Jehovah-Shammah - The Lord is present. Ezek. 48:35.
MINE:Those names were PLACES ,or locations.By containing God's name in the name of those places does not MAKE those PLACES GOD.By Jesus name meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”, that does not make Jesus =Jehovah.
JOSHUA Means “Jehovah Is Salvation" as well.That doesn't make Moses sucessor = God.Does that make sence to you?
YOURS:Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord.
MINE:That is true,however that doesn't mean he is the ONLY Lord.Deut 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords,
Jehovah is the GOD OF GODS,and LORD OF LORDS.Sarah called Abraham her lord.Does that mean Abraham is Jehovah?
Jesus WAS GIVEN all authority over the Christian congregation.That is why he is our Lord.Who do you think gave Jesus this authority?
Do I need to give the scripture for this?
YOURS:"I and My Father are ONE (not two)." John 10:30.
MINE:You don't seem to get the point.Please read CAREFULLY.John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
The disciples are to be ONE.NOT MANY but ONE with Jesus and God.Do you believe God is manifested in the flesh in these disciples?You totally miss the point of John 10:30.Jesus isn't saying he is the Father any more than he is saying the Disciple are the Father.The oneness means unity in thought and purpose,not being the same person.
YOURS:Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." Matt. 28:18.
MINE :Who gave Jesus this power?
YOURS:By no means did Jesus teach that the Holy Ghost was another Person.
MINE:I agree.The Holy Spirit is not a Person as we see in Acts SOME of IT was poured out on the disciples.The Holy Spirit is the Power God uses to accomplish his will.Something God can give to us,to help us.
Despite your lengthy explanation,you made none of my questions clear.Is that because as you said:"Without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:"Does this mean you cannot answer?
Is it possibly for you to answer the following question consisely?
When Jesus was on earth,was he the Father?
Do you believe the human Jesus was both man and God?
If God is one person,how is it that you split Him up as two seperate people with different wills?
Your description is of 2 seperate people,yet you say they are the same person.
After Jesus was resurrected do you still believe God has this duel nature?
Do you believe Jesus was more than a man when he was on earth?
Again,please answer as short as possible so I can clearly understand how you believe. |
Perhaps we should establish that Jesus is GOD first! Here's what Greek scholars say...
Dr. Julius R. Mantey: Calls the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 "A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION." It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 `the Word was a god." But of all the scholars in the world, so far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have done."
Bruce M. Metzger, Professor of New Testament Language and literature at Princeton Theological Seminary said: "Far more pernicious in this same verse is the rendering,... `and the Word was a god,' with the following footnotes:"`A god,' In contrast with `the God'." It must be stated quite frankly that, if the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists. In view of the additional light which is available during this age of Grace, such a representation is even more reprehensible than were the heathenish, polytheistic errors into which ancient Israel was so prone to fall. As a matter of solid fact, however, such a rendering is a frightful mistranslation." - THEOLOGY TODAY April, 1953
Dr. J. J. Griesback: "So numerous and clear are the arguments and testimonies of Scriptures in favor of the true Diety of Christ, that I can hardly imagine how, upon the admission of the Divine authority of Scripture, and with regard to fair rules of interpretation, this doctrine can by any man be called in doubt. Especially the passage John 1:1 is so clear and so superior to all exception, that by no daring efforts of either commentators or critics can it be snatched out of the hands of the defenders of the truth."
Dr. Eugene A. Nida (Head of the Translation Department of the American Bible Society Translators of the GOOD NEWS BIBLE): "With regard to John 1:1 there is, of course, a complication simply because the NEW WORLD TRANSLATION was apparently done by persons who did not take seriously the syntax of the Greek."
Dr. William Barclay (University of Glasgow, Scotland): "The deliberate distortion of truth by this sect is seen in their New Testament translations. John 1:1 is translated: `...the Word was a god', a translation which is GRAMMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE. It is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest." - THE EXPOSITORY TIMES Nov. 1953
Dr. B. F. Westcott (Whose Greek text is used in JW KINGDOM INTERLINEAR): "The predicate (God) stands emphatically first, as in John 4:24. It is necessarily without the article...No idea of inferiority of nature is suggested by the form of expression, which simply affirms the true Diety of the Word...in the third clause `the Word' is declared to be `God' and so included in the unity of the Godhead."
Dr. Ernest C. Colwell (University of Chicago): "A definite predicate nominative has the article when it follows the verb; it does not have the article when it precedes the verb;...this statement cannot be regarded as strange in the prologue of the gospel which reaches its climax in the confession of Thomas. `My Lord and my God.'" John 20:28
Dr. F. F. Bruce (University of Manchester, England): "Much is made by Arian amateur grammarians of the omission of the definite article with `God' in the phrase `And the Word was God.' Such an omission is common with nouns in a predicate construction. `a god' would be totally indefensible."
Dr. Paul L. Kaufman (Portland, OR.): "The Jehovah's Witness people evidence an abysmal ignorance of the basic tenets of Greek grammar in their mistranslation of John 1:1."
Dr. Charles L. Feinberg (La Mirada CA.): "I can assure you that the rendering which the Jehovah's Witnesses give John 1:1 is not held by any reputable Greek Scholar."
Dr. Harry A. Sturz: (Dr. Sturz is Chairman of the Language Department and Professor of Greek at Biola College) "Therefore, the NWT rendering: "the Word was a god" is not a "literal" but an ungrammatical and tendential translation. A literal translation in English can be nothing other than: "the Word was God." - THE BIBLE COLLECTOR July-December, 1971 p.12 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2126
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
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HGP,
YOURS:Dr. Julius R. Mantey: Calls the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 "A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION." It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 `the Word was a god." But of all the scholars in the world, so far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have done."
MINE:Everyone has an opinion.In my opinion,I believe he ,and the others are wrong,and I don't care what that man has to say.Plus he is wrong.About John 1:1 NTIV,NW say "a god" AT,Mo say"was divine" Ludwig Thimme translation reads "God of a sort the Word was".
Plus,in the preface of a King James Bible there is a page entitled "ILLUSTRATIONS of the original HEBREW,GREEK,and SYRIAC TEXTS of the HOLY BIBLE with the Interlinear Literal Translation"--John 1:1,2 is there.NOTICE the literal translation.--"In a beginning was the Word,and the Word was with the God,and a god was the Word.This was in a beginning with the God.--THIS WAS FROM THE PREFACE OF A KING JAMES BIBLE.YET WITH IN THAT BIBLE IT IS NOT RENDERED THAT WAY,but the way you are familiar with.The preface also mentions Wherever the words "GOD" and "LORD" occur in all capital letters God's name ,Jehovah, was there originally.
These so called expert scholars don't seem to have a problem with the removal of God's name ,Jehovah, from the Bible.There is proof that it appeared almost 7000 times,but today most Bibles leave that name out,except for a few instances in some Bibles.Why aren't they up in arms about that.
Regardess of what Bible you use,John 1:1 still says the Word was with God.If the Word is God,how can he be with God?
ROM 15:6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.NOTICE GOD IS MENTIONED AS SEPERATE FROM JESUS.GOD IS JESUS' FATHER.THE BIBLE IS CONSISTANT IN THIS.
Your scholars proved nothing.They are fighting over one scripture.Let me guess,all these "scholars" support the trinity.What is their explanation for the lack of the definite article?--It is like the Name or title Satan.The same word is used for "resister",but when the definite article is used with it it becomes the name or title Satan.That is how these languages worked.The definite article can change the meaning.
Plus that didn't refute any of my points or answer any of my questions.
Because of these run arounds you are doing,I'm beginning to believe you CANNOT answer these questions.
Is it possibly for you to answer the following question consisely?
When Jesus was on earth,was he the Father?
Do you believe the human Jesus was both man and God?
If God is one person,how is it that you split Him up as two seperate people with different wills?
Your description is of 2 seperate people,yet you say they are the same person.
After Jesus was resurrected do you still believe God has this duel nature?
Do you believe Jesus was more than a man when he was on earth?
Again,please answer as short as possible so I can clearly understand how you believe.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:04 am Post subject: |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: |
Perhaps we should establish that Jesus is GOD first! Here's what Greek scholars say...
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So instead of attacking the points directly, you turn this into an attack of a Bible translation? Why the bait and switch?
And why can't you discuss what you believe and then use references to support your ideas instead of being a copycat of info from JW bash sources? It's easy to complain and find similarly minded complainers so you can take an easy ride on their coattails but much more difficult to be original and speak your own mind. |
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Ryck
Lion King
Joined: 05 Dec 2002
Posts: 1094
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:11 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Ryck,
I didn't understand why you did that at first either,but I certainly understand it now,and totally agree with the point you made.He wasn't at all consise,was he. |
Nope, he wasn't.
There are two types of people I don't consider seriously and so I just leave them talking to themselves:
A) Those that are full of hot air.
B) Those that are full of cold air.
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | TBax wrote: | Ryck,
I didn't understand why you did that at first either,but I certainly understand it now,and totally agree with the point you made.He wasn't at all consise,was he. |
Nope, he wasn't.
There are two types of people I don't consider seriously and so I just leave them talking to themselves:
A) Those that are full of hot air.
B) Those that are full of cold air.
|
Jehovah's Witnesses are FALSE PROPHETS according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22. If Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God, then they are ALL lost and have no hope of heaven. READ JOHN 8:24! I will not listen to a FALSE organization who believes that Jesus is "a god." JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES ARE POLYTHEISTS! |
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:40 am Post subject: |
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| Ryck wrote: | | HolyGhostPower wrote: |
Perhaps we should establish that Jesus is GOD first! Here's what Greek scholars say...
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So instead of attacking the points directly, you turn this into an attack of a Bible translation? Why the bait and switch?
And why can't you discuss what you believe and then use references to support your ideas instead of being a copycat of info from JW bash sources? It's easy to complain and find similarly minded complainers so you can take an easy ride on their coattails but much more difficult to be original and speak your own mind. |
The Jews did not understand how God could come in flesh. They did not understand Jesus on one occasion when He told them He was the Father (John 8:19-27). However, on many other occasions they did understand His claim to be God. Once when Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and credited the work to His Father, the Jews sought to kill Him - not only because He had broken the Sabbath but because He said God was His Father, making Himself equal with God (John 5:17-18). Another time Jesus said Abraham rejoiced to see His day. When the Jews asked how this could be, Jesus replied, "Before Abraham was, I am." The Jews immediately recognized that He claimed to be I AM - the name by which Jehovah had identified Himself in Exodus 3:14 - so they took up stones to kill Him for blasphemy (John 8:56-59).
When Jesus said, "I and my Father are one," the Jews sought to stone him for blasphemy, because He being a man made Himself God the Father (John 10:30-33). They sought to kill Him when He said the Father was in Him, again because He was claiming to be the Father (John 10:38-39).
When Jesus forgave a palsied man of His sins, the Jews thought He had blasphemed because they knew that only God could forgive sin (Isaiah 43:25). Jesus, knowing their thoughts, healed the man; thereby showing His divine power and proving His deity (Luke 5:20-26). The Jews were right in believing that there was one God, in believing that only God could forgive sin, and in understanding that Jesus claimed to be the one God (the Father and Jehovah). They were wrong only because they refused to believe Jesus' claim.
It is amazing that some people today not only reject the Lord's assertion of His true identity, but even fail to realize what He did assert. Even the Jewish opponents of Jesus realized that Jesus claimed to be God, the Father, and Jehovah, but some today cannot see what the Scriptures so plainly declare. |
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | HGP,
YOURS:Dr. Julius R. Mantey: Calls the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 "A GROSSLY MISLEADING TRANSLATION." It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 `the Word was a god." But of all the scholars in the world, so far as we know, none have translated this verse as Jehovah's Witnesses have done."
MINE:Everyone has an opinion.In my opinion,I believe he ,and the others are wrong,and I don't care what that man has to say.Plus he is wrong.About John 1:1 NTIV,NW say "a god" AT,Mo say"was divine" Ludwig Thimme translation reads "God of a sort the Word was".
Plus,in the preface of a King James Bible there is a page entitled "ILLUSTRATIONS of the original HEBREW,GREEK,and SYRIAC TEXTS of the HOLY BIBLE with the Interlinear Literal Translation"--John 1:1,2 is there.NOTICE the literal translation.--"In a beginning was the Word,and the Word was with the God,and a god was the Word.This was in a beginning with the God.--THIS WAS FROM THE PREFACE OF A KING JAMES BIBLE.YET WITH IN THAT BIBLE IT IS NOT RENDERED THAT WAY,but the way you are familiar with.The preface also mentions Wherever the words "GOD" and "LORD" occur in all capital letters God's name ,Jehovah, was there originally.
These so called expert scholars don't seem to have a problem with the removal of God's name ,Jehovah, from the Bible.There is proof that it appeared almost 7000 times,but today most Bibles leave that name out,except for a few instances in some Bibles.Why aren't they up in arms about that.
Regardess of what Bible you use,John 1:1 still says the Word was with God.If the Word is God,how can he be with God?
ROM 15:6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.NOTICE GOD IS MENTIONED AS SEPERATE FROM JESUS.GOD IS JESUS' FATHER.THE BIBLE IS CONSISTANT IN THIS.
Your scholars proved nothing.They are fighting over one scripture.Let me guess,all these "scholars" support the trinity.What is their explanation for the lack of the definite article?--It is like the Name or title Satan.The same word is used for "resister",but when the definite article is used with it it becomes the name or title Satan.That is how these languages worked.The definite article can change the meaning.
Plus that didn't refute any of my points or answer any of my questions.
Because of these run arounds you are doing,I'm beginning to believe you CANNOT answer these questions.
Is it possibly for you to answer the following question consisely?
When Jesus was on earth,was he the Father?
Do you believe the human Jesus was both man and God?
If God is one person,how is it that you split Him up as two seperate people with different wills?
Your description is of 2 seperate people,yet you say they are the same person.
After Jesus was resurrected do you still believe God has this duel nature?
Do you believe Jesus was more than a man when he was on earth?
Again,please answer as short as possible so I can clearly understand how you believe. |
READ 1 Timothy 3:16, 1 John 3:16, Acts 7:59, Colossians 2:9, Matthew 1:23, John 10:33, Phillipians 2:5-8 and Acts 20:28....JESUS IS GOD! |
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