representational or literal

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject:

Jmj

TSS – I liked your response! Very Happy

I really appreciate it when people can inject a little good-natured humor into these discussions. Wink

It’s something I hope I can improve on myself! Wink

And I think I can totally relate to the meaning (as I understood it) behind your humor about there being “only one church btw… my church.” It reminds me of something I experienced not too long ago.

When I was "living it up" in good old Mesopotamia recently... I had a fundamentalist friend who was very driven to try to witness to Muslims. He met with very little (if any) success and often received VERY negative responses (going into detail about some of them might actually disturb you.) I think his results were largely a result of his technique; he sometimes came across as very accusatory and confrontational. “Your religion is a lie, your prophet was a liar… here… read this Jack Chick tract! Laughing

” and that sort of thing. From the point of view of a devout Muslim (or even a nominal Muslim – you have to live there for a while to fully comprehend and understand just how much a PART of their culture Islam actually IS! Wink

) his approach was at the very least… arrogant, and quite likely… they saw it as horribly blasphemous. Certainly offensive.

Was he correct that “Jesus is the TRUTH! There is no salvation without Him!” Yes - Absolutely! (I think you would agree. Wink

)

I guess the point is… perceived arrogance has a lot to do with the presentation. You might very well view Catholics in a similar light. And I truly do not want anything I say to influence THAT kind of reaction with you or anyone! But, I think if every sincere Protestant-Christian really cares enough to not avoid “things Catholic” just because they are – they would be surprised at the truth they might find in the Catholic Church! Smile

Don’t be afraid to take another look. Wink

Also, the Church does not believe that non-Catholic Christians are “hopelessly lost.” There is indeed great hope for Protestant-Christians - His name is Jesus Christ! Wink

(Of course, I know you know that. Wink

) And FYI, the Catholic Church does not teach or promote damnation of people outside her visible structure. Smile

In fact, in her almost 2,000 year history - she has never proclaimed or condemned ONE soul to hell! (Surprisingly enough! But, it IS true!)

theseldomscene · Banned Joined: 17 Mar 2005 Posts: 7817

i'm glad you caught the humor intended in my post...most don't.... Wink

on a serious note...i believe nothing can interprete the word but the word...any other way to me is no more than some peanut heads opinion of what it is saying...atleast using the bible to intreprete the bible you have some standard other then someones opinion made without the bible about the bible while reading the bible Very Happy

...

also, you said the c.c has never condemned anyone to hell...well, you have one up on martin luther then Laughing

...

please don't think i'm trying to disrespect the pope....some of my best friends last name is pope...really... also, i hold the c.c in high regard, and i don't consider myself a protestant...as i am protesting nothing... Twisted Evil

one of my best friends was catholic, and i would even let him come in my house if he used the side enterence Wink

...

i liked your response....remember...it is good for your health to laugh...

all in the name of my LORD JESUS...theseldomscene...

truthreigns · Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:32 am Post subject:

Jason, There is something I must tell you. You won't like it. You are very much like I used to be when I was Catholic---very condescending (stooping down to the level of one you think is inferior to you) and adament (not giving in or relenting) I was taught that Catholics were supereior to everyone not Catholic. The only ones who would get to heaven. A great sin of pride.

A question: Are you allowed to read your Bible. I am 75 years old. While I was still catholic (until I was 30) the laity wasn't permistted to read it. It was too complicated for a mere man to understand so we were told.

You had no answer for me when I quoted from your own Bibles. It says what mine says as far as I have read. It is the commentaries that are contradicting what the Bible says.

Read this scripture from your Bible again (2 Timothy 2:15 Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.) Study means study and not take mere man's word for what it means. Isn't God capable of opening your eyes to what He means? I have read things 10 times and it just flew over my head. The 11th time, I felt like I had a shock. The meaning came to me so easily this time. You study and pray each time that God will reveal the meaning to you.

A mere man may tell you the same thing over and over again. You accept it because you are afraid not to. But do you really understand it?
I wasn't allowed to read teh scriptures. I would eventually read something that was opposite of what God was saying. The one thing I first read that made me a doubter of what I was being taught.:

1 Timothy 4:3 "1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared, 3 Forbidding to marry, to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by the faithful, and by them that have known the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be rejected that is received with thanksgiving: 5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Also from your Bible.

1 A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife, sober, prudent, of good behaviour, chaste, given to hospitality, a teacher, 3 Not given to wine, no striker, but modest, not quarrelsome, not covetous, but 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all chastity. 5 But if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?

What do you make of this one without your commentaries by a man?

It is certainly opposite of what your own Bible says. I often wondered how a priest or any official in a church could tell his people how to raise his children if he hasn't the experience with his own. Of course to do this he had to have one wife.

Not given to wine. I could say any alcoholic beverages. My husband delivered an appliance to a convent in the town where I lived. Right away the priest came over. The first thing he did was go to the refrigerator and bring out two beers. Why would there be beer there in the first place.?

I know there are preachers who do the same as far as drinking.

A lot has changed since I was Catholic. It was even stricter. We were forbidden to eat meat on Fridays and other days during lent. If you did you were bound for hell. When the rules were changed what happened to those already in hell. Were they released? So many questions unanswered.

Jason, I am going to pray for you just as I assume that you are praying for me to "come back home". It is not my home.

In the Catholic church, God was not a loving God but one of fear and forever laying guilt on you. All this little child heards was "God is going to punish you if you do this or that." What a terrible thing to put into a child's mind and heart constantly. God will punish but He also is a God of love. When you know He loves you, you are willing to obey Him.

I had my say. I will not reply to any more of your accusations. We would not get anywhere. Think about it.
_________________
For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword...."

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:55 am Post subject:

Jmj

Greetings truthreigns! First off, please accept my apology for not responding faster – I wasn’t ignoring your reply, I just didn’t have time to make a reply! I apologize. And I hope I can respond to your posts here in a way that doesn’t offend you or make you feel like I’m leveling “accusations” at you. Very Happy

Also, I’m impressed that you have a copy of the Douay-Rheims Version! It certainly uses beautiful language doesn’t it? You should read about the history of this ancient English translation – I think it’s pretty interesting. Smile

I have been personally using (first and foremost – lately) the Revised Standard Version (CE,) I also frequently use the NIV, and the KJV. But, I’m not really too picky – after all, I’m no scholar. Though I am familiar with the general differences between literal and dynamic translations for the most part – I also recognize the usefulness of different translations for different purposes. Very Happy

I also liked your post(s) very much. Very Happy

And I am truly sorry that I’ve come across as condescending. I don’t personally consider myself a very good Catholic, I certainly have a lot of areas I need to improve in and a lot of sin I still struggle with daily. But, I am trying (constantly) to better myself with the aid of His Grace - and to follow Him! In truth, it’s quite likely that you are living the Christian life and are a better example of how a Christian should behave (generally speaking) than I am!

As far as the content of your earlier post goes… what makes you think Jesus didn’t intend for water to be the normative method for Baptism? Baptism separate from water? I do not think these passages you provided say that, they only illustrate the difference in the nature of the sacrament of Baptism (instituted by Christ) and John’s baptism as an earlier “type” that came before the Christian sacrament. If you believe that Baptism was supposed to be separated from the physical use of water – that’s your opinion and you’re entitled to it – and there are certainly many that share that opinion or interpretation. But, truthfully it is the minority interpretation in Christianity (even amongst Protestants,) and historically questionable (to say the least.) Since none of the texts teach this explicitly and since I think (in all fairness) a very good counter can be made to that assumption strictly using Scripture – why not at least consider what the Church teaches?

Consider this (if you will), when John baptized others, he never saw the heavens open up and the Holy Spirit literally descend down upon anybody – but that is what happens in a Christian Baptism! Jesus’ Baptism is the model for ours of course – and Christians since the very beginning have believed in the “salvific” nature of Baptism. Please, consider His Baptism and look for any implication of mere “symbolism” in these passages. Smile

truthreigns · Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject:

Jason,

I am sorry but I don't think any further discussion will do either of us any good. You are still accusing me of saying things I didn't say or implying other issues.

I never once said I didn't believe in water Baptism and I did explain why it was necessary. I just don't believe in baby baptism or just sprinkling. Jesus was fully emerged as a grown up. Do we follow Jesus or don't we?

I don't read protetant commentaries either. I used to do that but I stopped. I just study the Bible itself.

There were other things you accused me of. You called me a liar because I said I wasn't allowed to read the Bible. At a very young age, I had to sneak to read it. I wanted to know what God said. But I'll let them fly right over my head for they weren't true.

I won't be going back on that site so don't waste your breath or mine trying to convince each other. I have heard of orthodox catholics being married but not in the Roman catholic which I was in.

So consider this subject closed.
_________________
For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword...."

golfjack · Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: reply

I just had to butt in. Yes, Water Baptism something a Christian should participate in, but according to the Book of Acts, it is done symbolically to represent the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord. Water Baptism does not save anyone period. It's a lie of Satan that has held many in bondage for many years. Also, who is our interpreter for scripture? Of course, the Holy Spirit. He will lead you into all truth. Before we study the Bible, we should always pray for guidance. We are also to discern spirits, and if a spirit tells you to believe in something other than what the Bible teaches, you can be rest assured that this spirit is deceiving you.

sorry for butting in, but it gets my dander up when some denomination teaches that water Baptism saves. It's completely false. I think there are about 7 Baptism's taught in the Bible, like the Baptism of fire in the upper room.

May God bless, golfjack

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject:

Jmj

TSS - you have a great sense of humor! I rely enjoyed your reply. Very Happy

Truthreigns – “Yes mam.” You have my most sincere and my most heartfelt apologies my sister. Sad

Jack, I’m picking this up in the other Bible Doctrine thread. Smile

May the Lord be with you all! Very Happy

Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine

Roger459 · Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject:

WHAT DOES = = WATER BAPTISM = = Have to do with These? ? ?

1. (Galatians 3:1-2-3) O foolish Galatians, = who hath bewitched you, = that ye should = not obey the truth, = before whose eyes Jesus Christ = hath been evidently set forth, = crucified among you?
(Gal 3:2) This only = = would I learn of you, = = Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, = = or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:3) Are ye so foolish? = = having begun in the Spirit, = = are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

2. (1Corinthians 1:14-to-18) I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
(1Co 1:15) Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
(1Co 1:16) And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
(1Co 1:17) For Christ sent me not to baptize, = = but to preach the gospel: = = not with wisdom of words, = = lest the cross of Christ should = = be made of none effect.
(1Co 1:18) For the preaching of the cross = = is to them that perish foolishness; = = but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

3. (1Corinthians 12:13) For by one Spirit = = are we all baptized = = into one body, = = whether we be Jews or Gentiles, = whether we be bond or free; = = and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

4. (Ephsians 2:8-9-10) For by grace = = are ye saved through faith; = = and that not of yourselves: = = it is the gift of God:
(Eph 2:9) Not of works, = = lest any man = = should boast.
(Eph 2:10) For we are his workmanship, = = created in Christ Jesus unto good works, = = which God hath before ordained = = that we should walk in them.

5. (Titus 3:5) Not by works of righteousness = = which we have done, = = but according to his mercy = = he saved us, = = by the washing of regeneration, = = and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

No where in these verses IS WATER BAPTISM ever Preached -or- Taught = that it is necessary for Salvation!

SALVATION = is by God's Grace alone! IN OUR FAITH RESPONSE = to the Free GIFT OF GOD, = = SALVATION THROUGH CHRIST JESUS = = GOD gives us HIS HOLY SPIRIT!

SURELY = = WATER CANNOT DO THAT? ?

NOTICE Ephesians 2 says = = NOT OF WORKS = LEST ANY SHOULD = = BOAST!

IS WATER BATPISM = A WORK = OR GRACE [ unmerrited Pardon ]

(Rom 11:6) And if by grace, = = then is it no more of works: = = otherwise grace is no more grace. = = But if it be of works, = = then is it no more grace: = = otherwise work = = is no more work.

YOU CANNOT be saved by your Works, -and- GOD SAYS IT IS BY GRACE!

WATER Batpism = = is only a Public Confession = = of an inward Profession = of our Faith = = IN THE FINISHED WORK OF CHRIST!

PERHAPS this will help?

(Ephesians 4:4-5-6) There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
(Eph 4:5) One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
(Eph 4:6) One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

ONE BODY = SPIRITUAL [Bride of Christ = His Redeemed Church!]
ONE FAITH = SPIRITUAL
ONE HOPE = SPIRITUAL
ONE LORD = SPIRITUAL

**** ONE BAPTISM = SPIRITUAL BAPTISM - Into the Body of Christ, See again = 1 Corinthians 12:13 -&- Romans 8:9

ONE GOD = SPIRITUAL

TO TAKE YOUR PREMISE = about water baptism = WHERE IS WATER BAPTISM IN THIS LIST? ? ? IT IS NOT!

Thanks, RR

Harry3142 · Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

This is the only means of salvation. We may try to dance around it, or substitute manmade laws in an attempt to convince others that they can, and must, earn their own salvation rather than accept it as God himself has offered it. But an honest opinion concerning our own works, as well as the reading of Scripture, attests to the reality that we must attain salvation through our faith in Jesus Christ or we will not attain it at all.

As an example of how far the Roman Catholic Church has come in the last 50 years, the passage I just quoted is approved as written by The New Jerome Bible Commentary. This is the one that has the Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat of the Roman Catholic Church. Their only stipulation, which we as protestants wholly agree with, is that the belief be sincere.
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"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." (Romans 4:7-8,NIV)

golfjack · Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: reply

Harry, I am glad to see that the Catholic Church is coming around now. But, most Catholics that I know will say that they are saved by grace through faith plus works. When one is truly saved, one must pput all their trust in Jesus Christ finished work on the cross. They still believe that if they committ a Mortal sin, and they don't confess it to a priest, they are condemned for eternity. Also, Who is accountible for all the lost souls before the fifty years? Maybe, you are talking about Charismatic Catholics.

May God bless, golfjack

FFT · Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: reply

Harry3142 · Posted: Mon Apr 10, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject:

FFT-

When you were physically born, you weighed a certain amount and were so many inches long. But after a viable birth, you grew, as have we all (some of us more than others). But this growth was not due to something added after your birth in order to induce growth; it started at the birth.

In the same way, James is telling those who claim to be Christians that if their spiritual rebirth is indeed viable, it will be verified by their works. Their having truly accepted Jesus Christ as both their Lord and Savior will show in their compassion for those in want that they see around them.

This compassion, now called Practical Christianity (aka Authentic Christianity) is given as evidence by all the authors of the New Testament, and is emphasized by Jesus Christ himself as the most inportant feature of his followers (Matthew 25:31-46). But what we are seeing is pietism, legalism, ritualism, traditionalism, et al. infecting the very people who are supposed to be rolling up their sleeves and going to work for Christ.
_________________
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." (Romans 4:7-8,NIV)