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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Greetings (AGAIN  ) folks! 
P-numbers… I DO see what you’re saying. And I also agree with several specific points that you brought up – especially your point that it is all pretty complicated!  What I have been trying to say is that it IS complicated – and assigning the blame for any particular thing… crime or not… is not as easy as painting an extremely large and diverse group of people with the same brush.
You, in your answer, first divided and separated your original group to assign your list of “crimes” to smaller units – but then... you asserted that these groups are “by no means” separated or “disjointed.” I thought that was little funny actually!
But, I strongly disagree - I think anyone can “disjoint” the group (“Republicans”) into many “groups”… all consisting of one – by using many different "means." For example… any politician, who belongs to the Republican part, and did not agree with a pre-emptive attack and invasion of a sovereign country, could be “disjointed” from the group that DID support the invasion of Iraq. 
I appreciate your thoughts on the “abortion is a crime” and “murdering innocent children” topics! I think the fact that you related the phrasing of those words to the holocaust was particularly interesting – I suppose that if you truly agreed with the position you are promoting (without exception) – you would never have brought the word “holocaust” into the topic though! | Quote: | | However, when you use the phrase "crime against humanity", that really is a terrible fallacious appeal to emotions. |
Also, a "crime" - by definition, IS an action “against humanity.” We’re not talking tort law here.
Your point about using the word “children” I think is very valid since you are an athiest. But even an atheist could see that its use serves a very legitimate purpose. To say “fetus” or “embryo” dehumanizes the life itself – to say “child” does the opposite - this is part of the intent on BOTH sides of the issue. I suppose you would object less if a pro-life advocate said "Taking the life of a 'human being'" instead of "child"? But strictly speaking – I am a Christian - I rightfully CAN apply the word “child” to all human beings! As most Christians believe (I'm sure you are aware) that we are ALL His children. This is why I can truthfully refer to a woman as my “sister” or a man as my “brother” – regardless of age. (Much more so if they are a Christian though!)
As far as the statement goes though… “murder of innocent children” - you applied it to the wrong person! If you look back, I never made that statement – YOU did! I was just responding to your words! I am with you in a way though... I personally disagree with that word (“murder”) being used to describe abortion… so I don’t and probably never will use it for that purpose. (I try to take care with what I say usually ) But, I can see (using pure reason) why its use is valid and how it CAN be applied to the issue of abortion.
| Quote: | | It is inaccurate, and objectively so; I can easily prove it. |
The word “murder” is not inaccurate however – I again disagree (vigorously) that it is “objectively” inaccurate. Also, if you meant to provide proof (“I can easily prove it.”) – maybe you accidentally erased that part of your post! Because I didn’t see it! I DO agree that its use (applied to abortion) is circumstantial however – it depends (partially) on the motive(s).
| Quote: | | The world is already overpopulated, so NOT using contraception and having lots of children is a sin. |
Negative, negative, NEGATIVE my friend!! First of all... as an atheist – having no religious precedent for this statement - you are out of your arena when you start deciding what constitutes a “sin.” Overpopulation, disease, and “unwanted” pregnancies are certainly issues that have to do with sex. But, His answer to all of these is not EVER sin! The answer to overpopulation is not mass genocide where some political leader decides the terms for the people who will be “marked.” The answer to disease is not to euthanize a human being at the first sign of illness. And the answer to “unwanted” pregnancy is NEVER abortion. These are sinful responses and they are NOT His answers.
Let me explain why contraception is a sin here briefly. You see, God has a purpose for certain things – and He gives us “gifts” to encourage certain behavior. Take eating for example. We eat food to nourish our bodies – so we can be healthy, grow, recover, and LIVE! This is the PRIMARY purpose of food – nutrition. But, it is no accident that we get pleasure from eating – He created it to be that way. FOR us! That we enjoy tastes, textures, and smells of the food – and the pleasant feeling of having a full belly are all SECONDARY to the primary purpose of sustaining our life. He gives us these gifts so that we can enjoy something that is meant to keep us healthy and keep us alive! We can ABUSE these gifts through the sin of gluttony  – when we go far beyond the purpose of nourishment – and eating becomes an act of selfishness - where we seek nothing but the pleasure of the food and overindulge.
The same principle applies to sex. He MADE sex to be a pleasurable experience! He fully intended for it to have these sort of attributes because the more primary purpose of sex is very important. His primary purpose of creating sex is to CREATE LIFE! That the action has an affect on the two people – and serves to bond them emotionally and spiritually is secondary as well, but all part of His plan.
“The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.”
God’s intended purpose for sex is procreation – any sexual action that is made with the deliberate intent to avoid possible conception and only to receive pleasure is a sin. Homosexual intercourse, pleasuring one's self, and sex with the use of artificial contraception all fall into this category – they are all acts of selfishness (to varying degrees) and sin because they remove God and His will from the act itself.
I would have preferred to address this topic (contraception) in another thread I suppose, but I am grateful that you replied to it specifically – it is an important issue for ALL Christians. So thank you P-numbers! If you have another comment on this topic though - or the more political ones... why not start another thread?
“Unwanted pregnancy? There is no such thing! Life is more important than the impermanent feelings of the individuals who help to make it!”
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine
Last edited by JasonB82ABN on Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
| Quote: | | The world is already overpopulated, so NOT using contraception and having lots of children is a sin. |
Negative, negative, NEGATIVE my friend!! First of all... as an atheist – having no religious precedent for this statement - you are out of your arena when you start deciding what constitutes a “sin.”
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My definition of sin is anything that causes the suffering of or harm to anyone else. The worse the suffering / harm, the worse the sin. Since by our very living, we cause others to suffer, we are all sinners. Bringing more people into an already overpopulated world causes suffering, and is therefore a sin.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
Overpopulation, disease, and “unwanted” pregnancies are certainly issues that have to do with sex. But, His answer to all of these is not EVER sin! The answer to overpopulation is not mass genocide where some political leader decides the terms for the people who will be “marked.” The answer to disease is not to euthanize a human being at the first sign of illness. And the answer to “unwanted” pregnancy is NEVER abortion. These are sinful responses and they are NOT His answers.
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I'm not advocating genocide. That is not necessary. We just have to slow down the birth rate to below the death rate, and our population will shrink naturally.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
Let me explain why contraception is a sin here briefly. You see, God has a purpose for certain things – and He gives us “gifts” to encourage certain behavior. Take eating for example. We eat food to nourish our bodies – so we can be healthy, grow, recover, and LIVE! This is the PRIMARY purpose of food – nutrition. But, it is no accident that we get pleasure from eating – He created it to be that way. FOR us! That we enjoy tastes, textures, and smells of the food – and the pleasant feeling of having a full belly are all SECONDARY to the primary purpose of sustaining our life. He gives us these gifts so that we can enjoy something that is meant to keep us healthy and keep us alive! We can ABUSE these gifts through the sin of gluttony – when we go far beyond the purpose of nourishment – and eating becomes an act of selfishness - where we seek nothing but the pleasure of the food and overindulge.
The same principle applies to sex. He MADE sex to be a pleasurable experience! He fully intended for it to have these sort of attributes because the more primary purpose of sex is very important. His primary purpose of creating sex is to CREATE LIFE! That the action has an affect on the two people – and serves to bond them bond emotionally and spiritually is secondary as well, but all part of His plan.
“The pleasure that sexual intercourse provides is an additional blessing from God, intended to offer the possibility of new life while strengthening the bond of intimacy, respect, and love between husband and wife. The loving environment this bond creates is the perfect setting for nurturing children.”
God’s intended purpose for sex is procreation – any sexual action that is made with the deliberate intent to avoid possible conception and only to receive pleasure is a sin. Homosexual intercourse, pleasuring one's self, and sex with the use of artificial contraception all fall into this category – they are all acts of selfishness (to varying degrees) and sin because they remove God and His will from the act itself.
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Fine, I accept that you believe both abortion and contraception to be sinful. However, this causes you a very real and very serious dilemma. In theory, you can be anti-abortion AND anti-contraception. But in practice, if you are anti-contraception, then you are PRO abortion, because the reduction / elimination of the use of contraception in society WILL DEFINITELY cause the abortion rate to skyrocket. You can't be against both of them.
Besides, isn't abortion MUCH worse than contraception? Even if contraception is bad, it clearly cuts down the abortion rate, so isn't it a much lesser evil with a big silver lining?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
P-numbers, you have a good mind for debate don’t you?
What I was saying about you being out of your arena for deciding and making your own conclusions about what sin is and what is not - is that a pre-requisite for believing in and understanding sin is believing in God! Your conclusions and assumptions about what might constitute a sin (according to you) are essentially meaningless – because they are divorced from the essential nature of our understanding about sin! You can have opinions about what is right and wrong – even on a large (society) scale – but you can’t really use the word “sin” – because you are a professed atheist. This word cannot be properly used when it is separated from faith. Do you see what I’m saying?
| Quote: | | I'm not advocating genocide. That is not necessary. We just have to slow down the birth rate to below the death rate, and our population will shrink naturally. |
I am not saying that you ARE advocating genocide. What I AM saying is that those examples I gave are perfectly reasonable and rational methods of dealing with those problems. Overpopulation is a problem – a person could make a good and thorough argument based on simple logic that simply terminating the lives of a few billion people would be an effective method to handling the problem of overpopulation. And they would be right in one regard – it would be effective. Would it be “right” though? Our (humanity’s) greatest understanding about what is right and wrong comes from our understanding and belief in God – and His Divine Will. Nothing gives us a better understanding of what is morally “wrong” than understanding what is “sinful.”
| Quote: | | Fine, I accept that you believe both abortion and contraception to be sinful. However, this causes you a very real and very serious dilemma. In theory, you can be anti-abortion AND anti-contraception. But in practice, if you are anti-contraception, then you are PRO abortion, because the reduction / elimination of the use of contraception in society WILL DEFINITELY cause the abortion rate to skyrocket. You can't be against both of them. |
I disagree. I AM very much against them both – and not in theory only.
| Quote: | | Besides, isn't abortion MUCH worse than contraception? Even if contraception is bad, it clearly cuts down the abortion rate, so isn't it a much lesser evil with a big silver lining? |
They are both mortal sins – but, I can certainly see why you would think so. Abortion is much more obviously heinous. And I am inclined to agree with you to an extent – the Church automatically excommunicates anyone who participates in an abortion (actually, it's probably more accurate to say they excommunicate themselves ) – so it would seem that the gravity of that particular action is recognized as being pretty severe. But, the Church does not teach anything about the “lesser of two evils” my friend. She rejects sin no matter the form! And teaching people that it is "good" or "okay" to prevent sin… by sinning… has no place in His Church.
Personally my friend – I feel that you truly do or are beginning to understand the seriousness and “wrongfulness” of abortion. I hope you don’t bury those feelings. Please, spend some time praying (or meditating if you prefer ) on or about this issue – explore your feelings.
“Search your feelings… you know it to be true!” – Darth Vader
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
P-numbers, you have a good mind for debate don’t you?
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Thank you; apparently you're no slouch yourself!
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
What I was saying about you being out of your arena for deciding and making your own conclusions about what sin is and what is not - is that a pre-requisite for believing in and understanding sin is believing in God! Your conclusions and assumptions about what might constitute a sin (according to you) are essentially meaningless – because they are divorced from the essential nature of our understanding about sin! You can have opinions about what is right and wrong – even on a large (society) scale – but you can’t really use the word “sin” – because you are a professed atheist. This word cannot be properly used when it is separated from faith. Do you see what I’m saying?
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Yeah, sure. My ideas of right and wrong have nothing to do with God. Nevertheless, I like my definitions of right and wrong because they are as objective as possible. There are all sorts of morals in the Bible that don't make sense anymore. For example, the Bible says that you're not even allowed to touch a pig. So much for playing football...
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
| Quote: | | Fine, I accept that you believe both abortion and contraception to be sinful. However, this causes you a very real and very serious dilemma. In theory, you can be anti-abortion AND anti-contraception. But in practice, if you are anti-contraception, then you are PRO abortion, because the reduction / elimination of the use of contraception in society WILL DEFINITELY cause the abortion rate to skyrocket. You can't be against both of them. |
I disagree. I AM very much against them both – and not in theory only.
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You may be against them for yourself. I have no doubt that you can keep yourself from having any abortions or using contraception. But when you say that you are against abortion and contraception, you are making a larger statement, that they should not be allowed in our society. In practice, contraception keeps the abortion numbers down.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
the Church automatically excommunicates anyone who participates in an abortion (actually, it's probably more accurate to say they excommunicate themselves ) – so it would seem that the gravity of that particular action is recognized as being pretty severe.
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This doesn't make sense. As I understand things, even murderers and rapists don't get excommunicated; I thought that the church teaches that God will forgive all sins if you ask Him.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
But, the Church does not teach anything about the “lesser of two evils” my friend. She rejects sin no matter the form! And teaching people that it is "good" or "okay" to prevent sin… by sinning… has no place in His Church.
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This makes no logical sense. It is intuitively obvious to pretty much everyone that some acts are worse than others. For example, raping and then killing a child is clearly worse than stealing a dime.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
Personally my friend – I feel that you truly do or are beginning to understand the seriousness and “wrongfulness” of abortion. I hope you don’t bury those feelings. Please, spend some time praying (or meditating if you prefer ) on or about this issue – explore your feelings.
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I know that abortions are bad; I've always thought so. However, I think that bringing an unloved, unwanted child into the world to parents that can't and won't take care of him is much worse than killing a fetus that is only a few weeks old. So here we go again: often abortion is the lesser of the two evils, so there isn't much choice.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| the touching a pig and football comment...i have to hand it to you ...that was really |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
P-numbers… that was a quick response! I’ll have to keep this short, my wife and I have plans for the evening.
| Quote: | | In practice, contraception keeps the abortion numbers down. |
Yes, it may keep the numbers down. I'm not disputing that it is a perfectly “reasonable” method to try and solve the problem. Like “offing” a few billion people to control overpopulation is as well.
| Quote: | | This doesn't make sense. As I understand things, even murderers and rapists don't get excommunicated... |
I think you’re correct that murderers and rapists don’t automatically incur excommunication per se. But the purpose of excommunication is not to condemn anyone to hell – the Church cannot do that, nor has the Church EVER claimed or taught that any individual in the entire history of Christian history IS condemned or IS in hell. The purpose of excommunication is to encourage the faithful to repent!
| Quote: | | I thought that the church teaches that God will forgive all sins if you ask Him. |
Yes, she does teach that… and yes, He will!
| Quote: | | This makes no logical sense. It is intuitively obvious to pretty much everyone that some acts are worse than others. For example, raping and then killing a child is clearly worse than stealing a dime. |
It does make sense! I said that they are both MORTAL sins – sins that bring about the death of our souls and separate us from God if we do not repent. Killing a child (YOUR words! ) and stealing a dime would be: a mortal sin and a venial sin (respectively.)
And again… there is just no room for that “lesser of two evils” idea when we are talking about mortal sin – though in other cases, it may very well apply. Since you gave an extreme example (killing a child and stealing a dime) – I’ll do the same here!
Suppose there is a world leader who is just itching to annihilate a few million people… gas chambers, firing squads, bombs… whatever the case – he just wants to kill some folks. And some people try to convince him not to by saying… “How about… instead of 3 million innocent people… you just kill 1, but you get to do it with your bare hands? Would that work for you?”
The point is… NEITHER are the correct response! Both are horrible and truly “mortal” sins.
I love the pig and football comment too – you’re killing me here!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Jason... were you once a 'super-duper-paratrooper-bad-#%&'?
Spent three years in the 'duece' myself... and got the knees to prove it.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
It does make sense! I said that they are both MORTAL sins – sins that bring about the death of our souls and separate us from God if we do not repent. Killing a child (YOUR words! ) and stealing a dime would be: a mortal sin and a venial sin (respectively.)
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Ok, a better example. Let's say there's a drug dealer living on your street. Jack across the way decides that he hates this scum bag getting the neighborhood kids hooked on crack. He goes to the police, but they say that they can't do anything; they've tried in the past, but they just can't seem to get any evidence. So Jack dusts off his .38, goes up to the drug dealer, and kills him. Despite the guy being a scumbag, this is still a clear-cut case of murder, and is therefore a mortal sin.
Compare that with some guy killing a little old lady for her purse.
Both are mortal sins, but clearly one is worse than the other, and I think that pretty much anyone would agree with me here.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
What’s going on Trinity!? It’s funny, but any other unit in the Army – if you say… “Back in ‘division’ we used to…” – they usually know which ‘division’ you’re referring to! Lol And in the ‘Bats’ – they never call it anything BUT “Division.” There are a lot of divisions in the US Army… but only one “DIVISION.”
Bad knees are like our invisible purple hearts that the Eighty-Second “awarded” us with aren’t they? Nobody else can see them… but at least WE are constantly reminded of the things we’ve done! I never could use a knee brace back on Ardennes (thank you AR-670-1 ), but I sure use one now!
Here is your citation my friend - Attention to orders!
"Sergeant 'Trinity1’s' extraordinary knee problems, broken bones and concussions resulting from airborne operations carried out in ‘high winds,’ depleted uranium exposure, adverse reaction - resulting in scarring - from the 2nd series anthrax vaccination, unfortunate (though admittedly heroic) alcoholic beverage consuming capabilities thanks to the 24 hour PX down the street, exceptional PT and marksmanship scores, and general ‘rough’ or ‘abrasive’ attitude are in keeping with the highest standards of military service and reflect great credit upon him, the 82nd Airborne Division, and the United States Army.” Here are your bad knees and bad dreams faithful servant of the Union!
Something like that anyway right?
Good to know you my friend! “All the way!”
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:20 am Post subject: |
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i admire all who served in the army...i mean...we have to do something with you guys that aren't smart enough to make into the navy...
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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How smart do you have to be to sit on a hunk of metal floating in the water? 
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:13 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Good times!
I've got more than a few Navy jokes as well my friend - but, I don't use language like that anymore!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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Am I the only one in this forum who is not ex-military?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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SDMD
Show Poodle
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Nah, they are just good at going off-topic
_________________
Geology: fossils of different ages
Paleontology: fossil sequence & species change over time.
Taxonomy: biological relationships
Evolution: explanation that ties it all together.
Creationism: squeezing eyes shut, wailing "DOES NOT!" |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | i admire all who served in the army...i mean...we have to do something with you guys that aren't smart enough to make into the navy |
So. I've never been accused of being brilliant ya know. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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