Questions to ask Jehovah's Witnesses

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

1. Would you be disfellowshipped today from the Watchtower, if you believed and taught the Society’s doctrines of 1920? _____YES _____NO.

2. Would a Jehovah’s Witness of 1920 have been disfellowshipped if he then believed and taught present-day Watchtower doctrines? _____YES _____NO.

3. Would a Jehovah’s Witness living in 1913 have been disfellowshipped from the Watchtower if he believed and taught that 1914 was not going to be the “battle of the great day of God Almighty” or Armageddon, as the Society was then saying (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. II, The Time Is At Hand, 1908 ed., pp. 101, 172 and 245)? _____YES _____NO.

4. Did you know that the Watchtower once taught that 1874 was the “exact date” of the Lord’s return (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. II, The Time Is At Hand, 1908 ed., p. 170)? _____YES _____NO.

5. Could the 1874 “exact date” change to 1914? _____YES _____NO

6. Since the Watchtower’s doctrines and practices are continually changing, would you say that thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the past were not really “in the truth,” as they confidently confessed, according to present-day Watchtower teachings? _____YES _____NO.

7. Have thousands of Jehovah’s Witnesses died believing and teaching Watchtower “errors,” according to present-day Watchtower teachings? _____YES _____NO.

8. Are you sure the same won’t happen to you? _____YES _____NO.

9. Are you sure the 144,000 “born again” Jehovah’s Witnesses are really in Heaven, since they died believing and teaching false doctrine, according to present-day Watchtower teachings? _____YES _____NO.

10. Do you agree with the founder and first president of Jehovah’s Witnesses who said that if one lays aside the Scripture Studies and goes to the Bible alone, “within two years he goes into darkness” (Watchtower, 9-15-10, p. 298)? _____YES _____NO.

Psalms 119:130 says:
The unfolding of your words gives light; it gives understanding to the simple.

11. If Russell and other Watchtower presidents were not false prophets, as the Watchtower says, then why does Deuteronomy 18:21-22 declare them to be such? ______I DON’T KNOW WHY _____ THEY WERE FALSE PROPHETS.

12. Jesus taught in Matthew 7:17, “Every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit.” That fact is just like saying every true prophet produces true prophecies and every false prophet produces false ________________.

13. Did you know the Watchtower claims to have the ability “to declare things to come” (Watchtower, 4-1-72, p. 197)? _____YES _____NO.

14. If the Watchtower’s claim regarding this was true, would they ever have to admit to any of their false prophecies (or “mistakes” as called by some) or even try to conceal them entirely as they have also done? _____YES _____NO.

15. Did Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel or any other true prophet ever have to admit to any of their false prophecies? _____YES _____NO.

16. Did you know that there is not a single Scripture found anywhere in the entire Bible which exonerates a false-prophecy-maker from being a false prophet, if he admits to his false prophecy (or “mistake” as called by some)? _____YES _____NO.

17. “True, there have been those in times past who predicted an ‘end to the world,’ even announcing a specific date .... Yet, nothing happened. The ‘end’ did not come. They were guilty of false prophesying. Why? What was missing? ... Missing from such people were God’s truths and the evidence that he was guiding and using them” (Awake, 10-8-68, p. 23). _____TRUE _____FALSE.

18. Why doesn’t the Watchtower use the preceding bit of information on themselves? _____THE WATCHTOWER DOES _____THE WATCHTOWER HAS A DOUBLE STANDARD.

19. Did you know that Prov. 4:18 has nothing to do with prophecies? _____YES _____NO.

20. Does the Bible ever cite an example of a true prophet relying upon Prov. 4:18 to escape being branded a “false prophet”? _____YES _____NO.

21. Do false prophets make false prophecies? _____YES _____NO.

22. Does the evidence identify Zedekiah as a true prophet (2 Chron. 18, especially v. 10)? _____YES _____NO.

23. Does the evidence identify Micaiah as a true prophet (2 Chron. 18, especially v. 27)? _____YES _____NO.

24. Did both Zedekiah and Micaiah claim to speak God’s word? _____YES _____NO.

25. Does time reveal the false prophet? _____YES _____NO.

26. Does the evidence identify Hananiah as a true prophet (Jer. 28: 2-4)? _____YES _____NO.

27. Did he contradict Jeremiah’s prophecy in Jer. 25:11? _____YES _____NO.

28. Does Jer. 28:9 show a similarity between Hananiah and the Watchtower’s many false predictions about 1,000 years of peace coming after Armageddon which was supposed to occur in 1914, then in 1918, then in 1925, then in 1941 and then in 1975? _____YES _____NO.

29. According to 1 John 5:12,13, only two categories of people, past and present, exists. Which category are you in? _____I HAVE JESUS _____I DON’T HAVE JESUS.

30. If you are really in the first group, did you know that you have (present tense) eternal life right now, according to 1 John 5:12,13? _____YES _____NO.

31. While it is certainly true that we “must endure to the end to be saved,” “hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first” and remain “faithful” to the point of death to avoid being thrown into the lake of fire (Mt. 10:22; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:10,11), we can still know we are saved presently like they did in first century Christianity, if we are currently putting into practice the Word of God (Lk. 8:21). _____TRUE _____FALSE.

32. Did the early Christians know they had present-tense salvation (Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Tim. 1:9; Rom. 5:1)? _____YES _____NO.

33. Have you gone to Jesus in prayer for eternal life, as John 5:40 recommends? _____YES _____NO.

34. Did they have to submit to a 6 month book study, then join an organization before they were “saved” (Acts 11:14)? _____YES _____NO.

35. Did you ever notice that the word “know” in John 17:3 is not referring to intellectual knowledge, but instead a personal relationship? (Compare to Matt. 7:23.) _____YES _____NO.

36. How long after Peter’s short sermon was it before they qualified for Christian water baptism (Acts 10:43-48)? _____IMMEDIATELY _____AFTER A SYSTEMATIC STUDY OF THE SCRIPTURES.

37. When Paul and Silas were asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30), why didn’t they inform the ignorant, heathen jailer that he would have to submit to an extended study and join their organization before he could ever have the hope (not certainty) of present tense salvation? _____THEY DID ANSWER THAT WAY _____ BECAUSE SALVATION COMES WHEN WE 1) REPENT 2) GET BAPTIZED IN JESUS’ NAME FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS 3) RECEIVE THE HOLY GHOST WITH THE EVIDENCE OF SPEAKING IN OTHER TONGUES. (See Acts 2:38).

38. Should you remain loyal to an organization that teaches contrary to the Bible regarding salvation (and many other things) and is a Bible-defined false prophet trying to conceal its real identity? _____YES _____NO.

39. Are you going to try to forget about these Watchtower inconsistencies, deceptions, false prophecies, false claims and damnable heresies? _____YES _____NO.

40. Are you willing to read only the New Testament for yourself and no other literature with it to find the real truth, as it was taught by Jesus and his apostles? _____YES _____NO.

41. If you were wrong, would you change? _____YES _____NO.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,

You want talk about something,bring up a topic,not 41 topics at once.

According to many of your questions you appearantly believe that not understanding everything all at once makes a religion false.Did the apostles believe everything all at once,or did it take time to learn?

The following is from a person called Brenton from another site,The numbers in parenthasies refer to scriptures quoted at the end:

Can I ask you a few questions?

What would you say to a person that out right denies Jesus?

What would you say to a person that mistakes something that Jesus said and spreads a teaching that sounds like a false prophecy?

What would you say to a person that encouraged racial separation in a congregation?

The Apostle Peter was such a man. Did that make take him away from Christ? Did Jesus stop using him?

What would you say to a church or congregation where people were following different individuals instead of Jesus? or were allowing imoralatity in its midst that the out side people would find disgusting.

That is some of the problems of the Corinthians.

You see Kindoman every one makes mistakes. Moses did , King David did, and they were used by God even after they made mistakes.

A mistake in understanding is just that. A mistake. That is why the congregations in the first century were counselled to keep taking in knowledge
John 17:3 “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” NWT (Please note the NWT translates this verse differently from most Bibles to find out why visit my old web site http://homepages.picknowl.com.au/hepburn/nwt.htm

Can we take the time to examine some Biblical examples from the fist centry?

Christ had commanded a state of watchfulness on the part of the faithful followers

Matt 24:42 42 Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU do not know on what day YOUR Lord is coming (NWT)

“42 Watch therefore:” (ASV)

“42 Be watching, then (BBE)

“42 You must be on the alert” (Philips)

“42 Be on the alert therefore” (WEY)

So they (the Watchtower Society) are looking for Bible truths to bring to us, and, in light of that, (or as a consequence of that), the necessary changes will be made. It is true that some expectations have proved incorrect, but that does not mean that the changes of view put the basic teachings out of step with the Bible. Lets look at what happened in the first century with regard to expectations.

At 32 CE Jesus spoke to his apostles about the Kingdom. They thought that the kingdom was based upon a government, the capital being Jerusalem and the king to stand where King David used to be. They expected the Messiah to set up this government. How do we know this? because in Acts 1:6 after Jesus resurrection (in 33 CE), the apostles asked "Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?" (NWT)

NOTE: I have put numbers in brackets these refer to some texts shown at the end of this example to demonstrate the Biblical Basses for the example.

The year is still 32 CE. Imagine now that you are a Jew and two of the seventy (1) come to your village and they preach about Jesus and the kingdom (2). Now you are not just a Jew you are a nationalistic Jew. You love being a Jew, you are looking for the messiah and want to be free of the Romans and you ask them.

"Who is the king of this Kingdom?" What answer are you going to get? They will say its Jesus, the carpenter of Nazareth. (3)

"Where is this Kingdom going to operate from?" They will say on earth. (4)

"What is it going to do?" They will say it going to overthrow the Romans and lift this burden of us. (5)

Now it is at least 2 years latter. Sometime after Jesus had died. You are the same Jew and the same two disciples come to village. Now you ask them exactly the same questions. What is the response will you now get?

"Who is the king of this Kingdom?" It will still be Jesus. (3)

"Where is this Kingdom going to operate from?" Now it has changed the answer will be Heaven. (6)

"What is it going to do? is it going to overthrow the Romans?" No it is not.

For the Jews that are not followers of Jesus, and have heard this change in “teaching” what would they think? “Hey you followers of Jesus why do you change what you tell us?” Now for the Christians back there, that was a changed view. So what were they going to do just drop it all, say, "I wish the apostles would get it right,. Who knows just where this kingdom will be and what it will do?” “How do we know we are following the right messiah” “Perhaps we should look for a new messiah!“ There was a change in thought or understanding, but the underlining teaching was the same, Jesus is the promised Messiah sent to bring relief for mankind. The followers of Jesus did not abandon the apostles but the congregations continued to grow.

Now it is say the year 34 CE, or there abouts. You are not a Jew now you are a Greek, your wife is a Jewess and a Christian and you see that this new sect has changed her attitudes a little bit, she has become a better person and you like it .You like the congregation and you like the people and what they are preaching and you think you will join. Now what would your wife tell you?

"I am sorry darling you cannot, it is only for Jews." (7)

Now lets go to 36CE. I am still a Greek and my wife comes home from the meeting and says. " Darling I have got good news, one of our head men has had this dream about the sheep, he saw a sheet come down with all sorts of animals in it, anyway the thing is you can become a Christian now." ( Now how would the cynic Greek view this? " I knew that they would have to change this rule because they would never get enough people from just Jews."

But did the congregations view it that way? Saying, "Oh! We changed it because we need more followers." No, they did not it was clearing up of things in Jehovah's line of purpose of things.

Now move on to 46CE. you are the same Greek, same Jewish wife and you are still not a Christian.

“I've decided that I want to your religion more seriously,” and you say to your wife " hey! Look I want to join." What would she say to me now? She says, "well you have to get circumcised." I say, " What ! at my age?" (9)

49CE comes along. My wife comes home and says, " darling I've got good news again. The older men in Jerusalem had a council meeting and have ruled against requiring circumcision, for the believers from the nations." “Well, I am glad I didn't join a few years ago.” (10)

Lets go back to just after Jesus had been resurrected. I want to look at an account where the Apostle Peter misunderstood something that Jesus has said and what some could intemperate as a “prophecy” went out to all the followers of Jesus. From Peters words it was believed that the apostle John would never die until Jesus returned. John 21:20 -25 “20 Peter turned and saw following them the disciple whom Jesus loved, who had lain close to his breast at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is it that is going to betray you?" 21 When Peter saw him, he said to Jesus, "Lord, what about this man?" 22 Jesus said to him, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? Follow me!" 23 The saying spread abroad among the brethren that this disciple was not to die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he was not to die, but, "If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you?" 24 This is the disciple who is bearing witness to these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his testimony is true. 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.

Do you see the changes that took place, now what would the early Christians think? False alarms, or just enlightenment on God's purpose of things. So did these drastic changes in direction make the brothers in the first century feel that the congregation was not teaching what is right? No it did not, they knew the association of Christians were on the right track. They just had to adjust their thinking in line with what was being directing. For they knew that they had sufficient evidence that, that was the truth.

An illustration regarding the evidence we have, is one, which it is liken to a pregnant woman. Who goes to the doctor and after discussion, the doctor says "Yes, you are going to have a baby on the 6 day of January." She tells her husband, and they think it is great so they start making preparations for the day. They buy a pram and start making a babies room they don't care if it's a boy or a girl so they make it look real pretty. Then two weeks before the day they are all excited, getting ready for the big event. The bag is all packed and ready, then along comes the sixth of January and there is no baby, in fact there is not any labour pains. What would you think if this woman said, "Right? It didn't come, I am selling the pram and dismantling the room." What would you think of this woman? You would obviously think she was silly, because the evidence is there, she grown fat, bigger etc.

What is the point of all the above. Well we learn from Gods word that everything we read in the Bible is for our instruction for us to benefit from in some way (Rom 15:4 ”For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that by steadfastness and by the encouragement of the scriptures we might have hope.” RSV ). We also know that all of the Bible is inspired from God and beneficial for us (2 Tim 3:16 “ All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” RSV).

What I learn is that even though the early Christians had Jesus to teach them and then the inspired Bible writers, they on occasion got things wrong. Did God look disapprovingly on them for misunderstanding and getting this wrong? No the first century congregations flourished and grew. So just because a group today makes mistakes in undwerstanding of prophecy and some minor teachings does not distract from the basic truths of the Bible.

That is where JWs differe from most Christian denominations. We have to deternin what are the basic teachings of the Bible and Christianity.

That is the benefit of forums like this one. But discussing the Bible in a dignified manner onlookers can read both sides of an argument and judge for themselves what are the basic truths of the Bible.
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(1) Luke 10 :1, 8 “1After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.” (AV)

(2) Luke 10 “88… and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.” (AV)

(3) Luke 1:32-33 “32 He will be great and He will be called ‘Son of the Most High.’ And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His forefather David; 33 and He will be King over the House of Jacob for the Ages, and of His Kingdom there will be no end." (WEY)

(4) Acts 1:6 “6 So when they had come together, they asked him, "Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?"

(5) Luke 24:21 “But we were hoping he was the one who was to come and set Israel free…. "Yes, and as if that were not enough, it’s three days since all this happened;” (WEY)

(6) Acts 2:30-35 “30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” (AV)……. Jesus is to sit at Gods right hand and be King

(7) Matthew 10:5,6 5 These twelve Jesus sent out, charging them, "Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans, 6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (RSV)

Acts 10:28 28 and he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit any one of another nation; but God has shown me that I should not call any man common or unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me (RSV)

( Acts 10:30- 11:17 First gentile Cornelius This is a large section so I have not copied it in. Please take the time to review it

Acts 13:46,47 "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying, ‘I have set you to be a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth.’ (RSV)

(9) Acts 15:1, 5 “1 And certain having come down from Judea, were teaching the brethren—‘If ye be not circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye are not able to be saved” 5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up, and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to charge them to keep the law of Moses." (RSV)

(10) Acts 15 :6 – 31 “6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. 7 And after there had been much debate, ...... . 13 After they finished speaking, James replied, "Brethren, listen to me. 14 Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And with this the words of the prophets agree, as it is written, 16 ‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the dwelling of David, which has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up, 17 that the rest of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, 18 says the Lord, who has made these things known from of old.’ 19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, ............ 30 So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31 And when they read it, they rejoiced at the exhortation.” (RSV)
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Agape,
TBax

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

There is a discrepency with how this verse is translated in different Bible translations.The question is which one is more accurate,and which one is in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

I believe you can you can learn the truth from any "largely literal" translation.Even though there are errors in different translations,like the King James version contains thousands of textual errors you can still find the truth if you don't read out of context and it agrees with the rest of the Bible.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

KJ,Dy,JB,NAB translations use similar wording
NTIV,NW say "a god" AT,Mo say"was divine" Ludwig Thimme translation reads "God of a sort the Word was".
Why the descrepence?Its tecnical but the word for word translation is "In beginning was the Word,and the Word was toward the God and god was the Word"
Notice the word "the" in front of "Word" and "God".Only one instance here where the definite article "the" does not before the word "god" making "god" a more descriptive term,not identifying.So it can be said that the Word was a god.Well this explains the discrepence. Now which one is in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

What does the rest of the Bible say?
John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time

(1 John 4:12) At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.

(John 6:46) Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father

John 17:3 In prayer to his Father "3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. "

John 20:17 17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’”

This is what the apostles believed 1 Cor 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

Revelation 1:1 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,

All these verses show God and Jesus are seperate individuals.No matter what translation you use.
So the translation" the Word was a god" is more accurate according to Greek word structure,and fits in harmony with the rest of the Bible.

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The last thing you said about the Jews wanting to kill Jesus for saying he was the Son of God,I don't have a problem with that.Jesus was and is the Son of God.I don't understand why you wonder why it says a god at John 10:33.Do you think it should read "although being a man,make yourself God."?

Read the context.Jesus is showing the Jews that their Kings and judges were refered to as gods in the Bible.Certainly if this were true it would certainly be proper for the Son of God to be called a god.The context is not saying the Son of God should be called God,but a god.You must read in context.

Also the same rule applies here as at John 1:1.At both Matthew 22:37, Luke 10:27 the word for God is preceeded by the definite article.At John 10:33 the definite article is not there,thus it becomes "a god".

Hope this helps
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Agape,
TBax

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,

You see,where we speak english we structure our sentances differently than the ancient Greeks.That is why there are not truly literal translations,but largely literal translations.

John 8:56-59 doesn't say Jesus is God.Do you know how to read in context?If you do please answer,is Jesus speaking about his identity or how long he existed?

John 8:57 Therefore the Jews said to him: “You are not yet fifty years old, and still you have seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.”

WHAT IS THE CONTEXT ABOUT?JESUS IDENTITY OR HOW LONG HE EXISTED?Notice what a few other Bibles say.

John 8:58 (New Living Translation)
58Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"[a]
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John 8:58 (Contemporary English Version)
58Jesus answered, "I tell you for certain that even before Abraham was, I was, and I am."
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John 8:58 (Worldwide English (New Testament))
58Jesus answered, `I tell you the truth. I already was before Abraham was born.'

So it is not just the NWT that says it a little differently.

NEXT the word translated "worship" can also be translated as "obeisance" .Again CONTEXT must be considered when deciding which word should be used.

Example: At Matt 2:2 the astrologers weren't coming to "Worship" the king of the Jews,but to honor him.They weren't even true worshipers as they were astrologers,something condemned in the Bible.

Jesus identified who alone is to be worshiped.NOTICE:Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Jesus made it clear only Jehovah is to receive worship.Jesus as our King deserves our honor or obeisance.We don't give Jesus worship other wise we would be going against what Jesus himself said at Matt 4:4.

At MAtt 18 this word is used in an illustration Jesus gave and the context shows it shouldn't be translated as worship.

Matt 18:26 Therefore the slave fell down and began to do obeisance to him, saying, ‘Be patient with me and I will pay back everything to you.’

Hope this helps.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,
Again you are bringing up too many topics at once.Please a few at a time so I can properly explain.I will answer a few here.
Have you ever read this:JOHN 1:2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

You see,God created THROUGH Jesus.

(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

(Colossians 1:16) because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Proverbs 8:22 describes Jesus as Jehovah's Master worker.Also as the beginning of God's way.Yes Jesus had a beginning as Revelation 3:14 says:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

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Obviously Jehovah and Jesus would have the same qualities as HEB 1:3 He is the reflection of [his] glory and the exact representation of his very being,

Yes God is our Savior.Jesus is our savior as well.How can this be?Jude 25 to [the] only God our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord,

God saved us THROUGH his Son.

(1 John 4:9) By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.

If you continue to bring up this many topics,you will not get them all answered.Do you realize how long this would be if I answered them all.Each one deserves individual attention.

By the way,did Jesus identify himself as God?JOHN 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,

This is to refute your polytheist assertion.

Yes,there are more than one god,but there is only one true God that is to be worshiped.The Bible aknowledges the fact that there are many god,or mighty ones,and the true God that I worship is God of these.

Deut 10:17 For Jehovah YOUR God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the God great, mighty and fear-inspiring, who treats none with partiality nor accepts a bribe,

A GOD OF GODS.YES THERE ARE MANY GODS,BUT ONLY ONE TRUE GOD THAT IS TO BE WORSHIPED.JESUS IDENTIFIED WHO THIS IS.

Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Obviously there are false gods that men would make out of wood and stone. However there are others he rightly calls gods.

Psalm 82:1 82 God is stationing himself in the assembly of the Divine One;In the middle of the gods he judges:

Psalm 82:6 "I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods,And all of YOU are sons of the Most High.

Exodus 7 Consequently Jehovah said to Moses: “See, I have made you God to Phar´aoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet.

John 10:33"We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god." 34 Jesus answered them: "Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: "YOU are gods"’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

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God himself called human judges and kings ,who judged, gods.Simply because they were more powerful than the common people.Again,not to be worshiped,but feared because of their position.

The Bible calls Satan "the god of this system of things".God even told Moses that he(Moses)was to be god to Aaron,and to Pharoh. That being so it is certainly not wrong for the most powerful creature to be called a god.Even a Mighty God.This Mighty God is going to destroy the god of this system of things.But this Mighty God does all things all for the glory and honor of his Father,God Almighty.Phil 2:10 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Is Jesus a true god?I do not play your word game of absolute true and false.As I showed you the Bible reveals there are many gods,some of which are improperly worshiped in place of the Almighty who requires exclusive devotion,and some work in harmony with the Almighty but are not to be worshiped.
Outside the Almighty,whether a god is true or false really depends on whether another creature is worshiping that one.If someone worships Moses they make him a false god.The one condemned is not Moses,but the one who is worshiping Moses.If someone worships those Judges or Kings, that God himself called gods,that one is making these Judges or Kings false gods.Again the Judge or King isn't condemned but the ones worshiping them are.

The same is true of Jesus.Jesus spelled out who is the true God that deserves worship. John 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

And Jesus told us who to worship Matt 4:10 Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
If you go against Jesus words and worship Jesus YOU are makeing him a false god..Jesus is not to blame ,but you are.

According to my perspective Jesus,Moses,and those Judges and Kings are not false gods because I don't worship them..Jesus is, and Moses was, a god who acts in harmony with and for the glory of God the Almighty.Phil 2:11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father

Do you believe the Bible when it says "Satan is the god of this system of things"?Does believeing the Bible make you a polytheist?
_________________
Agape,
TBax

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

[quote="TBax"]HGP,

This is to refute your polytheist assertion.

Yes,there are more than one god,but there is only one true God that is to be worshiped.The Bible aknowledges the fact that there are many god,or mighty ones,and the true God that I worship is God of these.quote]

You are taking these scriptures out of context. Jesus is GOD! Get over it!

But I've proven that...my concern is...if the Jehovah's Witnesses are truly "Apostolic," then why don't they baptize in JESUS' Name as the apostles did? History PROVES that the early church baptized in JESUS' NAME ONLY, and that the Roman Catholic Church changed the baptismal formula to ...In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. HERE'S THE PROOF...

"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:

Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus' actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsover I have commanded you." That "Name" is Jesus.

Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church:

By Dr. Stuart G. Hall 1992, pages 20 and 21. Professor Stuart G. Hall was the former Chair of Ecclesiastical History at King's College, London England. Dr. Hall makes the factual statement that Catholic Trinitarian Baptism was not the original form of Christian Baptism, rather the original was Jesus name baptism. "In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," although those words were not used, as they later are, as a formula. Not all baptisms fitted this rule." Dr Hall further, states: "More common and perhaps more ancient was the simple, "In the name of the Lord Jesus or, Jesus Christ." This practice was known among Marcionites and Orthodox; it is certainly the subject of controversy in Rome and Africa about 254, as the anonymous tract De rebaptismate ("On rebaptism") shows."

Tom Harpur:

Tom Harpur, former Religion Editor of the Toronto Star in his "For Christ's sake," page 103 informs us of these facts: "All but the most conservative scholars agree that at least the latter part of this command [Triune part of Matthew 28:19] was inserted later. The [Trinitarian] formula occurs nowhere else in the New Testament, and we know from the only evidence available [the rest of the New Testament] that the earliest Church did not baptize people using these words ("in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost") baptism was "into" or "in" the name of Jesus alone. Thus it is argued that the verse originally read "baptizing them in My Name" and then was expanded [changed] to work in the [later Catholic Trinitarian] dogma. In fact, the first view put forward by German critical scholars as well as the Unitarians in the nineteenth century, was stated as the accepted position of mainline scholarship as long ago as 1919, when Peake's commentary was first published: "The Church of the first days (AD 33) did not observe this world-wide (Trinitarian) commandment, even if they knew it. The command to baptize into the threefold [Trinity] name is a late doctrinal expansion."

The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century."

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,

YOURS:You are taking these scriptures out of context. Jesus is GOD! Get over it!

MINE:Oh!Jesus is GOD.Well that's enough proof for me.There is no use to reason on the scriptures because YOU said Jesus is God.I'm sold.

Do you even understand what context is?These scriptures ARE in context.If they are out of context,enlighten me.How?Start with this one.-(1 Corinthians 8:6) there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

YOURS:But I've proven that...my concern is...if the Jehovah's Witnesses are truly "Apostolic," then why don't they baptize in JESUS' Name as the apostles did? History PROVES that the early church baptized in JESUS' NAME ONLY, and that the Roman Catholic Church changed the baptismal formula to ...In the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. HERE'S THE PROOF...

MINE:So you believe we should go against what Jesus instructed us at Matt 28:19?

MATT 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

Your right.Forget Jesus instruction as recorded in the Bible and listen to these men you've listed.(By the way,I hope you understand sarcasm because some people cannot figure it out.)
_________________
Agape,
TBax

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,

YOURS:The fact of the matter is...NOT A SINGLE PERSON IN THE WHOLE BIBLE WAS EVER BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER, SON, AND HOLY GHOST! READ THE BOOK OF ACTS....BAPTISM WAS DONE IN THE NAME OF JESUS ONLY- THE ONLY NAME UNDER HEAVEN GIVEN AMONG MEN WHEREBY WE MUST BE SAVED-Acts 4:12!

MINE:Congradulations.You are using the Bible to disprove Jesus own undisputed words.Yea,Jesus must not have known what he was talking about when he gave those instructions.Do you really think you have an accurate understanding?

YOURS:THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ADMITTED THAT THEY CHANGED THE BAPTISMAL FORMULA...WHY SHOULD WE NOT BELIEVE IT? AFTER ALL, THEY STARTED THIS FALSE BAPTISM...

MINE:Umm,I don't believe it maybe because I'm not Catholic.Catholics also just sprinkle water when baptism is an immersion.Why would I look to a false religious organization to find the truth.That is what the Bible is for.

LISTEN CAREFULLY.JESUS SAID THIS.baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit

Are you saying we should disregard Jesus words?Are you saying following what Jesus said here is wrong for Christians?

You did some fine research however I don't receive my theology out of encyclopedias.I follow what the Bible says.
Your arguing this point perplexes me as it is a clear Bible teaching.

You want to see what encyclopedias say about the trinity?

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). . . . The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. . . . By the end of the 4th century . . . the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol. XXVII, p. 294L.

According to the Nouveau Dictionnaire Universel, “The Platonic trinity, itself merely a rearrangement of older trinities dating back to earlier peoples, appears to be the rational philosophic trinity of attributes that gave birth to the three hypostases or divine persons taught by the Christian churches. . . . This Greek philosopher’s [Plato, fourth century B.C.E.] conception of the divine trinity . . . can be found in all the ancient [pagan] religions.”—(Paris, 1865-1870), edited by M. Lachâtre, Vol. 2, p. 1467.

John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, says: “The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of ‘person’ and ‘nature’ which are G[ree]k philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as ‘essence’ and ‘substance’ were erroneously applied to God by some theologians.”—(New York, 1965), p. 899.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

HolyGhostPower · Big Hamster Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 96

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2124

HGP,

Oh.A Oneness Pentacostal?I've never heard of that before.Does that mean you just believe Jesus is God?Neither of us believe the trinity,we have that in common.

However YOU SAID:there is EVIDENCE that Matthew 28:19 is NOT original, and that it was reworded by the CATHOLIC CHURCH to help support the TRINITY?

MINE:Do you believe the catholic church altered all of the earily copies and manuscripts that ever existed ?MSS were written from earlier copies found.Do you believe the Catholic church is responsible for ALL MSS written when translators were endevoring to interpret the earliest found copies?Do you believe ALL these translators were Catholic?

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NEXT:If Jesus is God who was Jesus Praying to?

John 17:33 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

Matt 26:39 And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

If Jesus is God,who is the Father?

Notice Stephens vision:Acts 7:55 But he, being full of holy spirit, gazed into heaven and caught sight of God’s glory and of Jesus standing at God’s right hand, 56 and he said: “Look! I behold the heavens opened up and the Son of man standing at God’s right hand.”

Does this vision substantiat your view that Jesus is God?
_________________
Agape,
TBax