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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:19 am Post subject: Interesting Factoid About Abortion |
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Here's an interesting factoid:
During the 80s, the crime rate was soaring, and all of the experts predicted that crime was going to keep spiraling out of control. However, by the time the late 80s rolled around, it became obvious that this was not happening. Crime did not continue to soar.
The reason? Abortion. Abortions became legal in the early 70s, and because of that, a lot of underprivileged, unwanted, unloved people that were going to become criminals were never born, and so never were able to affect the crime rate.
It's impossible to know, but I wonder how many murder victims' lives were saved because their would-be murderers were aborted.
I think that this is an interesting argument: abortion actually saves some lives, and certainly reduces crime.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 642
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 8:26 am Post subject: |
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P,
You've got to be kidding me. Let's kill all the children b/c they might grow up to be killers? This is ludicrous.
Criminals are made, not born. All criminal activity is a choice IMO.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: |
You've got to be kidding me. Let's kill all the children b/c they might grow up to be killers? This is ludicrous.
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You are grossly misunderstanding what I am saying. I am not saying that we should be killing anybody in order to minimize the number of criminals out there. I am just saying that abortion happens to have a silver lining to it, and that in terms of people being killed, abortion is not so clear cut because it also saves lives, since a disproportionate number of women who have abortions come from backgrounds in which their children have a higher risk of becoming criminals.
| Evee wrote: |
Criminals are made, not born. All criminal activity is a choice IMO. |
This is not quite true, since there are some people who are genetically sociopathic or psychotic, but I agree with you that most criminals are made. However, to say that criminal activity is a choice is a vast oversimplification. Much criminal activity is caused by poverty and desperation; ie. criminals are MADE by their circumstances. And women who come from poor, desparate backgrounds are the ones most likely to seek abortions. In effect, we have fewer unwanted children growing up in poor, desparate circumstances and becoming criminals.
It really is true that the legalization of abortion had a positive effect on crime reduction. Go look up the stats for yourself.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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P, you do realize that you are taking a correlation and trying to label it as 'cause and effect', don't you? You have no proof, not evidence, no studies, research, document, anything other than the correlation between a crime rate which 'did not soar' (although the evidence would demonstrate that it has continued to rise), and the legalization of abortions.
You recall in another post where I mentioned how you, who present yourself as 'scientifically minded' post some of the most 'unscientific' things I have ever read?
This is one of those times...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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unschoolmom
Kitten
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 141
Location: Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| I'm firmly with RevJP on this. Correlation is not causation. You've made a bad assumption. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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| West Virginia has about the lowest number of baptized persons per capita in the U.S, and also one of the lowest crime rates. Does that mean baptisms cause the crime rate to go up? I don't think the two statistics are directly related. You can use statistics to back up whatever purpose you want. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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You guys are ignoring a lot of what I said. It is pretty obvious that there is AT LEAST some causation going on here.
Clearly unwanted kids coming from impoverished backgrounds are at an extremely high risk for becoming violent criminals.
It is also clear that poor women who don't want the baby are much more likely to get abortions.
So clearly the fact that women suddenly allowed to abort meant that fewer of these future offenders were being born.
I am not claiming that the legalization of abortion accounts for the ENTIRE phenomenon of crime not increasing. However, sociologists who know about this kind of thing say that it had a large part to play. Even if you don't agree with this, you have to agree that some people who otherwise would have become violent criminals were aborted, and that this did save lives (maybe even yours!).
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | West Virginia has about the lowest number of baptized persons per capita in the U.S, and also one of the lowest crime rates. Does that mean baptisms cause the crime rate to go up? I don't think the two statistics are directly related. You can use statistics to back up whatever purpose you want. |
Except that I am clearly explaining the mechanism of causation: there is a huge overlap between the socioeconomic group in which babies at the highest risk of being aborted and the socioeconomic group in which people are the most likely to become criminals.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You guys are ignoring a lot of what I said. It is pretty obvious that there is AT LEAST some causation going on here. |
No. I have not ignored anything that you have said. I simply pointed out that you are making false assumptions and mistaking correlation with causation.
Did you know that there is a direct correlation betwen penis size and basketball ability? The bigger the penis the better the ability.
What does this correlation mean exactly? NOT ONE LITTLE THING.
If you surveyed a group of grammar school students and judged their basketball ability and the size of their genetalia and did the same survey on NBA players, what would you find?
You would find a direct correlation between penis size and basketball ability and you would also find that one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. It is a correlation, not a causation.
You my friend are presenting correlations as causations, erroneously.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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unschoolmom
Kitten
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 141
Location: Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | cballard wrote: | | West Virginia has about the lowest number of baptized persons per capita in the U.S, and also one of the lowest crime rates. Does that mean baptisms cause the crime rate to go up? I don't think the two statistics are directly related. You can use statistics to back up whatever purpose you want. |
Except that I am clearly explaining the mechanism of causation: there is a huge overlap between the socioeconomic group in which babies at the highest risk of being aborted and the socioeconomic group in which people are the most likely to become criminals. |
You've got a hypothesis, nothing more. Go out and test it before making assertions. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 6:06 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | You guys are ignoring a lot of what I said. It is pretty obvious that there is AT LEAST some causation going on here. |
No. I have not ignored anything that you have said. I simply pointed out that you are making false assumptions and mistaking correlation with causation.
Did you know that there is a direct correlation betwen penis size and basketball ability? The bigger the penis the better the ability.
What does this correlation mean exactly? NOT ONE LITTLE THING.
If you surveyed a group of grammar school students and judged their basketball ability and the size of their genetalia and did the same survey on NBA players, what would you find?
You would find a direct correlation between penis size and basketball ability and you would also find that one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. It is a correlation, not a causation.
You my friend are presenting correlations as causations, erroneously. |
You might have a point if I were not giving a causative link between abortion and lower crime rates. But I am giving a causative link that makes a lot of sense:
When abortions were legalized, the women who had a disproportionate number of them were exactly the women that were at the highest risk of having children that would grow up unloved in poverty and later resort to crime. Abortions therefore had at least some part to play in lowering the crime rate.
All of this is pretty obvious, isn't it?
Tell me if the following statement is true or false: "Some people that were going to later become criminals never became criminals because they were aborted."
If you say this statement is false, then you're just being silly, because it's obviously true. And since it's true, it means that my original claim that abortions are at least PARTIALLY responsible for the lower crime rate is also true.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:13 am Post subject: |
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prov.22:1
Last edited by theseldomscene on Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:59 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | You guys are ignoring a lot of what I said. It is pretty obvious that there is AT LEAST some causation going on here. |
No. I have not ignored anything that you have said. I simply pointed out that you are making false assumptions and mistaking correlation with causation.
Did you know that there is a direct correlation betwen penis size and basketball ability? The bigger the penis the better the ability.
What does this correlation mean exactly? NOT ONE LITTLE THING.
If you surveyed a group of grammar school students and judged their basketball ability and the size of their genetalia and did the same survey on NBA players, what would you find?
You would find a direct correlation between penis size and basketball ability and you would also find that one has absolutely nothing to do with the other. It is a correlation, not a causation.
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Incidentally, the penis size / basketball ability is not a very good example of how people make mistakes with correlation and causation.
When comparing NBA players and grammar school students, penis size and height are synonymous. In other words, if you put all NBA players and all grammar school students into a row, and randomly choose a person x from the line, his penis will be large if and only if he is tall with > 99% probability. In that sense, penis size and height are identical adjectives with respect to which group of people they describe. Large penises are found only on NBA players, and small ones are only found on the kids.
Therefore, if you look at this population, any person x with a large penis will also be tall, and all of the tall people in the population are the best basketball players. So it isn't a very good example, since large penis size causes people to be taller, and being taller causes them to be better basketball players. So by transitivity, large penis size doesn't just correlate with better basketball abilities; logically speaking it causes them since penis size and height are synonymous.
Probably a better example is the old "ice-cream consumption correlates with but does not cause people to drown" argument.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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p38,
you would have a better arguement if you were saying all underprevileged women should have to undergo forced sterilization... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7678
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | p38,
you would have a better arguement if you were saying all underprevileged women should have to undergo forced sterilization... |
No, I wouldn't, because that would be an impossible argument to make. I don't support anything even close to that!
I'm simply saying that there are a lot of silver linings to abortion (reduced crime rate being one of them), and pro-lifers often ignore them completely.
When trying to determine if something is good or bad, you have to weigh the pros against the cons. Pro-lifers ignore all of the pros of abortion and simply weigh the cons, and then come to the conclusion that abortion is bad, which is a forgone conclusion if you don't weigh the pros.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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