 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
dpainter
Little Guppy
Joined: 20 Dec 2005
Posts: 33
Location: Canada
|
 Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| cballard wrote: | | You Protestants argue too much about little things that I can’t imagine God cares about. |
This might be true about some Protestants, but it is also true for Catholics, I know I was there.
| cballard wrote: | | I get to meet Jesus up close and personal when I receive the Eucharist. |
challard can you please guide me to where it mentions the word Eucharist in the Bible?
_________________
John 5:39You diligently study[a] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 667
|
| Posted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cballard wrote: | | You Protestants argue too much about little things that I can’t imagine God cares about. |
It would seem there were rifts in the Catholic church as well otherwise we wouldn't have the other churches. If everything the catholic church taught was agreed upon by everyone, it would stand to reason that no one would leave the church.
| cballard wrote: | | Why I remain a Catholic is because I get something more at my church, the Catholic Church, that I can’t get from the others. I get to meet Jesus up close and personal when I receive the Eucharist. |
Curious -- why can't other churches do the same? Just b/c a person is not Catholic does not mean they don't receive the same. I feel the Holy Spirit every time I partake of the bread & the wine. It just reminds me of the sacrifice Jesus made for each of us & I feel blessed each time I do it.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
Holy cow!  It’s been a long time my friends. Since the website stopped functioning... I thought this discussion was pretty much done and over with. In truth, it crossed my mind that there may have been a strong force contributing to the breakdown of this particular website... if you know what I mean. But, that's purely speculation! Thankfully, we can resume! I’m looking forward to our continued conversation – aided by our love for God.
I’m personally up to my neck studying for my midterms right now, but as soon as I have a chance, I will review our discussion and respond as best I can to some of the great questions and points that have been brought up… I’m referring here to the more charitable posters of course.
May the Lord be with you all!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 667
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Jason! Boy, it's good to be back. After a while, I stopped checking to see if the board was up & running. It's nice to come back here. Looking forward to hearing from you.
Good luck on your midterms!!! 
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5299
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Jason & Evee, I'm so glad to see you back! I'm administrator for 3 of Conrad's boards & this is the only of them that's working.
I see a lot of the members came back today,.
Did you get my short e-mail?
_________________
Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
dictionary Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 667
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Got your e-mail, Nobby. That's what drove me here again. It's good to be back! I missed this place! So good to see everybody again!
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
Greetings friends! Midterms are over (thank the Lord!) and I am going to devote some time here to making some long overdue replies! It’s great to see the site up and running again and it’s great to see some familiar names! Thank you very much Evee for your kind words! And Nobby, it’s great to be back… glad to see you as well! God bless you both!
I’m going to try to pick up the conversation here – starting with the issue that our friend Jack chose almost THREE months ago! I am sorry I haven’t responded sooner, I pray for your forgiveness! 
The issue had to do with the Catholic Church’s understanding about the Pope… our friend Jack offered his interpretation of some scriptures…
| Quote: | “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” St. Matthew 16:18-19 (KJV) |
Yes Jack, you are correct in your understanding that these verses have to do with the Catholic Church’s teachings about the office of the Pope. And though there are many others, I’d like to concentrate on these in particular for now.
But first, I think that the most important thing you need to understand is that the Church does not and has never sought to replace Christ – Who is the “living stone” and certainly the foundation of our faith – with any created being. Jesus Christ is certainly our “rock” and our “good shepherd.” If you care enough to take an honest and objective look at what place the pope has in Christianity, and what place he does not have, I believe you will no longer see a contradiction (in any way) with the message and teachings of our most gracious Lord and Savior! Having said that, let’s look at the verses!
Peter, who was the first among the apostles to recognize and confess the divinity of Jesus, was given gifts in these passages – and the nature of these gifts are no trivial thing. I’m going to make an attempt to do some exegesis here… but please… know that I am only a layman! I do not consider myself to be very capable of expressing the truths of our faith as well as most people! But, I am eager to try. I ask for your forgiveness ahead of time for errors and anything that might sound uncharitable – I will sincerely try to avoid both.
I will be using the RSV-CE and some of it's commentary to form a few of my thoughts and explain this idea of “Gifts” … please look for yourselves! Or even purchase a copy of the Ignatius Catholic Study Bible for the Gospel of Matthew if you like! I certainly recommend it for Catholics… and even for non-Catholics I think it would be a very valuable addition to your library.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
Continued…
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
Here I go! I’ll try to discuss these “gifts” I mentioned here. Wish me luck!
A Blessing!
In the verse immediately preceding Matthew 16:18, Jesus gives Peter (as Simon) a “blessing” BECAUSE of the gift he had already received… the understanding of the truth that the man before him was truly God! Up until then, this had not been revealed to any of His apostles… and Peter was the first.
A New Name!
Then Jesus gives Peter another gift – a new name! Jesus literally gives Simon the name “Rock” – this portion of the verse could effectively be understood to say “you are rock and on this rock…” Attempts to make the verses say otherwise are usually done with the sole intention of discrediting the role of the St. Peter and his successors – but they only serve to harm the word of God by falsely interpreting these passages to fit a meaning that is not only untrue… but doesn’t even come close to fitting the context!
One of the most popular false interpretations is the one Jack subtly hinted at – the idea that the first use of the “rock-name” given to Peter means just a “small stone” and that the second means “massive, or rocky cliff” and is a reference to either Peter’s confession (only) or Christ Himself. The difference in the Greek words used is true (“petros” and “petra”) but they do NOT mean different things here! The most common word for “rock” in earlier Greek probably WAS “petra” – but this word is a feminine noun (Spanish speakers will also recognize the gender significance of nouns that end with an “a”) and as a name could obviously not be given to a man, so the closest masculine word (“petros”) was used for Simon’s name. But, the difference in the Greek words is not as divisive as some would have you believe… and in the 1st century, the difference was non-existant – "petra" and "petros" both meant “rock.” But, none of that really matters anyway, because Jesus wasn’t speaking in Greek when He uttered the words! He was speaking in Aramaic… and in Aramaic, there was only ONE word for “rock” – that is “kepha.” And hearing Simon’s new name in Aramaic, His words would have been “you are ‘kepha’ and upon this kepha…’” We KNOW Simon was indeed called Kepha (Rock) by Jesus because his name is preserved elsewhere in Scripture. In St. John’s Gospel (1:42,) we see the Aramaic word (kepha) preserved in the transliterated word “cephas” and this name is given (by Jesus) to Simon. We see his name preserved in other places as well. For example, St. Paul’s first epistle to the Corinthians (1:12, 3:22, 9:5) or his letter to the Galatians (2:9).
Another important point is that this false interpretation does not fit the context. By attempting to change the meaning in this way… the interpreter effectively changes the meaning of Christ’s words to something like: | Quote: | | “Blessed are you, Simon son of John… and I tell you… you yourself are an INSIGNIFICANT PEBBLE, but on THIS huge and massive boulder… I will build MY Church.” |
Negative my friends! This whole passage is important because it is establishing Peter’s role of primacy and leadership amongst his brother apostles… nowhere are we given any reason to interpret these passages as emphasizing Peter’s NON-leadership or downplaying his importance! It simply does not fit at all!
The TRUTH is, my friends, that Jesus Christ… that is… God Himself - gave Simon the humble fisherman the name “Rock.” In English, we use the word “Peter” – but it still means the same thing… “rock.” People do damage to the word of God by trying to change the meaning of His words. But, the truth will always prevail! Praise be to God!
Continued…
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 2:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
A Promise!
| Quote: | | “[T]hou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” |
The promise to build His Church is SO important! As King Solomon (the son of David) was the only one commissioned to build the spiritual temple of God in the Old Testament, Jesus (a new Davidic King) the Son of God builds His spiritual temple in the New - and though it has many things in common with the OT Temple... it is not a building! But, just like the Temple built by Solomon was laid with the all important foundation stone (which was supposed to have topped off and sealed a long shaft leading down into the hades,) the foundation stone (laid by Jesus) of the new temple (the Church) has St. Peter – the rock. In our new temple (the Church) – we are protected from the gates of Hell (or Hades more properly) because (in large part) of a properly placed stone… laid by the most excellent Architect the world has ever known! And here we are… almost 2,000 years later and the Church has not only survived… but flourished! Despite constant persecution from without AND from within! He is certainly a Father who keeps His promises!
Keys of Authority!
Maybe Jesus really did give St. Peter a set of keys! Like when a friend of yours might say, “Hey buddy, I’m gonna be heading out of town for a while… keep an eye on my wheels for me…” and tosses you (a most trusted friend) the keys to something precious and important to him. Like a Porsche or something. lol
Obviously, I’m joking (or trying to anyway!) This is a much different situation here… and we are not talking about an automobile! We’re talking about the New Covenant of God!
Yes, the keys are a symbol of teaching authority (Luke 11:52.) But, more importantly, Jesus is using the Davidic office (quite like a Prime Minister) that was used in the Davidic Kingdom and re-establishing it for His universal (catholic) and heavenly Kingdom! In Isaiah 22, we see the establishment of this office. What is said of this new Prime Minister? “And I will clothe him with thy robe, and will strengthen him with thy girdle, and will give thy power into his hand: and he shall be as a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Juda.” (Isa 22:21 KJV) (“Pope” by the way, simply means “father.” )
Wait, there’s more! “And I will lay the key of the house of David upon his shoulder: and he shall open, and none shall shut: and he shall shut, and none shall open.” Clearly, Jesus is using the OT example of Eliakim (the Prime Minister, whose authority was second only to the King) and not only re-establishing it, but making it even greater! As Jesus is surely greater than David! He uses the symbol of the keys, and the same manner of “binding and loosing” is evident in the “opening and shutting” in the passages of the OT.
And as with Eliakim, the office Jesus established was also meant to have successors. Simply because... when the King was gone, He needed someone to be in charge! And the King intended for His Kingdom to exist until the end of time! Think about it… if the King created an office of Prime Minister to have authority in His absence… and the office ceased to exist upon the death of the first person appointed to this office… then NOBODY would be in charge of the Kingdom and it would fall apart! It would fall into a state of chaos where everyone either recognized NO authority, or considered THEMSELVES their own authority! That is precisely WHY Jesus gave us the gift of the office of the Pope, who I suppose you could call the “prime minister” of the Kingdom of the New Covenant!?
You see… the King is still the King. And He is still ruling over His Kingdom even now! And though our most glorious and “hallowed” King has left this world, He IS coming back! Until then, He has built a Church - and He has appointed a leader of His Church to guide, protect, and feed His children in His absense! Praise the Lord!
Jack, As far as you comments about Peter being the “supreme and infallible authority above all other disciples” goes… I understand why you have a difficult time with this notion. But, in truth my friend… I think you ONLY have a difficult time with it because you are grossly misunderstanding those words you are using! It’s not as difficult or offensive a picture as you might think!
I’ve gone on for quite a long time here! lol I’m sorry my posts were so long… I really need to work on the idea of “keeping it short.” In any case, I suppose I’ll wait for a bit before moving on to more biblical background for the papacy… but I promise that I will stay on this subject for a while before speaking to something else! If anyone has any other questions or comments about the whole “Pope” thing… I’ll try fielding them as I discuss some more passages. Cool? Again, I am sorry for going on so long! Big kudos for anyone who actually takes the time to read the whole thing! lol
May the Lord be with you all!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: reply |
|
|
Hi Jason, nice to hear from you again. Happy to see that you have passed your exams. Maybe, you should have someone help you study the Bible. Ha, ha.
I will wait until you are finished to respond. About a month ago, I talked to a Catholic nun, who has left the Catholic Church. I was really appalled as to what she said is going on in the Catholic schools. Quite shocking. Anyway, she sought God and has been released from the Bondage of that Church. I also, have been studying the history of the Catholic Church, and indeed I found out they are out there in the twi-light zone. Be it at that, I just want to tell people the truth of God's Word.
May God bless, golfjack |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: reply |
|
|
Jason, you did a very good job in posting. I know it took a great deal of time. Having said that, I still don't agree, and never will. I guess my biggest problem is not the pope, but the way Catholics see salvation, and I guess that's another subject.
In response to your post, I am not going to talk about rocks and what they mean. So let's talk about what scripture really says about Peter and his disciples. I will be as brief as possible. Nowher in scripture is it stated that Peter would be the supreme and infallibe authority above all other disciples (read Acts 15; Gal. 2:11). Nor is it stated that Peter should have infallible successors who would represent Christ and function as the official head of the Church. It is most important to note that there was no Church until we read the Book of Acts.
Also, it is important to note in verse 18 it says that the gates of Hades will not overcome the Church, with emphasis on the word will (future tense). Just before Jesus rose again, he took the keys away from Satan. This is called the completed work of the Cross. He did it all, when He said it is finished. What this passage does mean is that in spite of Satan doing his worst, the Church that Jesus Christ is building cannot, in the end, be overcome by Satan. The enemy is a defeated foe right now for a believer. We have been given authority to be overcomers. God's true church will rise up in faith, authority and the power of the Holy Spirit to righteously assaukt Satan's kingdom and domain of darkness by delivering people from sin, disease, bondage and oppression. We are called the redeemed ones. We can do all things through Christ, who strengthens us. We are more than conquerors in Christ. Does this sound like the Catholic Church? No way.
I guess this is enough for now.
Be blessed Jason, Jack |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
Hello again folks! Jack, thanks for the quick responses… I can always count on you to be “on the ball” can’t I? I want to give some attention (quickly) to a question posted by dpainter before the “great disruption.”  Even though dpainter more or less answered the question for dpainter’s self already! But, before that… I do want to address one thing you mentioned Jack. You spoke to a nun who is leaving or has left the Church? You know, my friend, our enemy is working day and night trying to deceive and do anything he can to steer us away from God… and this poor woman who made solemn and holy vows and promises for commitment TO God has broken them… and from your words… you seem to think this is cause for rejoicing? This woman needs your prayers, not your congratulations my friend. 
| Quote: | | Hi, I tried to read through this discussion but, I am ashamed to say, I started dosing off....sorry. My question is: (this is one I ask to the lady jehovah witness that comes to my door, and she still can't give me a straight answer) so here is my chance to ask a Catholic) Is it only Catholics that go to Heaven? And if not, what are the steps I must take to get there, without going through the catholic church? thank you in advance. Make it short please, it hurts when I hit my head on the desk. |
Dpainter, are you comparing Catholics to Jehovah’s Witnesses?
I know what you mean about the long reading… I’m also a “give it to me simply… short and sweet” – kind of guy from time to time. I will give you a straight answer right now!
“Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. “Since ‘without faith it is impossible to please [God]’ and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life ‘but he who endures to the end.’”
Short enough for you my friend? That is what the Church teaches dpainter, hope it's straight enough for you. If you want to know about or have questions about the Church’s teaching(s)… just go to the source!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:04 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
Greetings again folks! I’ve really been hoping for an opportunity to offer a little more illustration about the office of St. Peter, so I’m going to continue a bit now! (There’s still more!) I pray that I’ll be able to shed some more light and maybe answer a few questions that have been brought up… and maybe some that haven’t been spoken of yet! That would be nice! But, I certainly don’t give myself THAT much credit. Thank you for your patience though… ALL of you!
I’d like to start off by talking about “Papal infallibility.” When I first remember actually hearing the term, I was pretty far from being a practicing Catholic… and it seemed rather arrogant to me, or at least strange. Now that I understand what it means… I know it for the blessing that it truly is! I pray I can maybe help at least one other person to see it too!
The idea might seem bothersome; maybe because it offends our American ideals of democracy and that we have no earthly “king” – just a President. Or maybe because people who don’t understand (or don’t even care to learn) just think that we Catholics think the Pope is perfect and cannot sin. The truth is, yes – the Pope can sin… and yes, he CAN speak infallibly… when he means to. Regardless of sin.
Sinning has nothing to do with being able to teach infallible doctrine. Any one of the sincere Christians that spend time here can commit a mortal sin early in the day and later that same day make an infallible statement… such as, “Jesus is Lord.” This is no different than what the Pope does. Also, infallibility does not belong ONLY to the Pope, because when all of the Bishops (as successors of the Apostles) are together, in union with the Pope, and they teach and explain a particular doctrine – they too have the charism of infallibility. When they come together with the intention of teaching the truth… they do just that! And we have the authority of Jesus Christ to back it up! Speaking to His Apostles… | Quote: | | "He who hears you hears me" (Luke 10:16), and "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven" (Matt. 18:18). |
Infallibility only (important here people!) applies to cases when the Pope is officially and solemnly teaching a fundamental truth concerning either faith or morals (usually when a doctrine has been called into question) and when he is teaching in this official capacity it is referred to as “Ex Cathedra” or “from the chair.” This is the exact same principle (and actual wording) used in St. Matthew 23:2 when Jesus commands “the multitudes and his disciples” to do whatever the scribes or Pharisees who sit in the seat (Greek: “kathedra”) of Moses tell them to. Jesus understood that they might be sinful men and that many of them had become corrupt – BUT… even though they might not have practiced what they preached… what they DID preach in their official capacity as spiritual leaders was true! And according to Jesus, it was binding on the people of God. Why? Because God Himself chose for it to be so! The same thing applies when a Pope speaks “from the chair.” Except it’s supernaturally and spiritually charged… because JESUS built this Church and chose how it would continue, and He told His Apostles that | Quote: | | “You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you,” and that when the Spirit of TRUTH comes “he will guide you into all truth.” |
Jesus has supreme authority, He is our risen King and He created His Church (a true and visible Church) to continue teaching His truth with His authority. And don’t be fooled, until He returns (and you can bet He will!) the Church is the final authority (even according to the Bible!)
It is also important to keep in mind that it is a very rare occasion when the Pope makes a pronouncement “ex Cathedra” And the Pope certainly does not arbitrarily start pronouncing “truths” and throwing out doctrines for the multitudes to just “get used to.” In fact, infallibility does not necessarily give the Pope any better knowledge or wisdom about any particular theological issue – a Pope has to study and learn just like everybody else. What infallibility DOES mean… is that the Pope is prevented from teaching “un-truth.” Just like those who sat in the "seat of Moses," they taught the truth because of God - not because of themselves. So you see... it’s much easier and comforting to think of it as a safety net than a loose-cannon!
And something to think about… no Pope, in the almost 2,000 year history of the Church has EVER taught a heresy!  Not one! Of the handful of Popes that had scandalous stays in the office… not one of them ever cared to teach any heresy! If you think otherwise, you are simply misunderstanding poor behavior (and possible bad decision making) with an official teaching of the Church. The truth is, even Popes who didn’t live up to the call of their office as they should have - never taught a heresy… ever. (THAT is hugely awesome! PRAISE to YOU LORD JESUS CHRIST!) Someone who might not agree with papal infallibility (a skeptic) might say: “That’s probably because they were too busy sinning!” And you know what? That might very well be true! But, I definitely think God had at least a Hand in it.
Another thing to consider is this. We Catholics believe that the Scriptures contain the infallible word of God – that the Holy Bible is perfectly infallible and without error. And almost ALL non-Catholic Christians would agree! But, | Quote: | “[l]et us see, sir, whether an infallible Bible is sufficient for you. Either you are infallibly certain that your interpretations of the Bible is correct or you are not.
If you are infallibly certain, then you assert for yourself, and of course for every reader of the Scripture, a personal infallibility which you deny to the Pope, and which we only claim for him. You make every man his own Pope.
If you are not infallibly certain that you understand the true meaning of the whole Bible… then, I ask, of what use to you is the objective infallibility of the Bible without an infallible interpreter?” |
What makes YOUR interpretation(s) the truth? Because, there is only one truth – and all truth comes FROM and belongs TO: God.
In any case, there is my attempt at an explanation for “papal infallibility.” Hope it made SOME sense!
I truly… truly… appreciate your time and consideration. Thank you.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
Jmj
Hey Jack… I have to say, I am enjoying your feedback very much my friend! Your replies are thoughtful and interesting (to say the least!) Thank you for continuing to communicate with me my brother. I’m answering your reply in that other thread here.
| Quote: | | It seems to me that James was the leader their because James spoke after they were finished. |
I thought what you said about St. James being the leader was very intuitive. And to some extent, you are indeed correct! We do see that St. James certainly IS exercising his authority during the Council of Jerusalem in the book of Acts (the very first ecumenical council of the Church by the way. )
| Quote: | | Hi Jason, You said that Peter was the first pope or Bishop of Rome. Now, I ask you to read Acts 15: 13. It seems to me that James was the leader their because James spoke after they were finished. He made the final decision. Therefore, I believe He was the first Bishop of Rome. |
But to say… “Therefore, I believe He was the first Bishop of Rome” seems more than a little strange to me! There is a great amount of historical evidence and tradtion that unanimously demonstrates that St. James was the first Bishop of Jerusalem – not Rome. And that idea certainly doesn't fit the context very well. The Council was IN Jerusalem – obviously a different location than Rome. And what evidence is there that St. James was ever connected to the church in Rome… let alone being the first Bishop? You said - “Therefore, I BELIEVE…” (emphasis was mine ) Wow. I hate to say it Jack… but I feel I should caution you about basing your beliefs and indeed your faith on such poor scholarship and exegesis – I should keep this in mind as well of course. If I DO make this same mistake (and I'm sure that I will or have!) … please, by all means… feel free to correct or remind me!
I also can’t help but wonder about how many other conclusions you’ve come to that follow this pattern of: “Therefore, I believe…” THAT is one of the reasons why you should come home to the Church my friend! If you trust in His Church, you are in league with an interpreter that won’t let you down!
Additionally, I would like to mention that St. James is not usurping the authority of St. Peter in these passages at all! Read it all again and think about what is going on. The Church convenes for a council, to discuss and decide upon some important current events and issues – namely, whether or not Gentile converts to Christianity need to be circumcised. The Apostles are on the same team Jack! It’s not Peter vs. James here. The fact that St. James speaks the way he does is certainly not offensive to St. Peter – after all St. Peter has pretty much already preempted his decision! Notice, BEFORE St. James even says a word about any decision (or anything at all,) and AFTER the debate had taken place… it is St. Peter who stands up and speaks! And what do the people do then? “All the multitude kept silence” is what what they do! I mean… St. Peter just STOOD UP after “much disputing” or arguing… and proclaimed (infallibly) that Gentiles were fully Christian, just as they (the Jews) were. Imagine it… a bunch of debate and arguing… everyone talking at once and disputing eachother… and then the old man STANDS UP to speak and they all fall silent. Pretty gripping. Clearly… St. Peter’s authority in this text is not undermined. And he was very clearly supporting the decision that circumcision was not a “yolk” that needed to be put on Gentile converts!
But, as Bishop of Jerusalem, it’s a matter of propriety that St. James is officiating at the council. Think… when you have a family dinner at your home and your eldest brother and his family come… you still sit in the head chair right? It’s your right anyway… you could of course give him the head place at the table out of respect, but he probably wouldn’t be offended if you didn’t. And you choosing to sit at the head of your own table doesn’t deny that he is the firstborn, or the eldest… and it’s really immaterial anyway – this is more a cultural issue of politeness than an example of establishment of a divine office!
| Quote: | | Also read Romans 8:16. |
I have of course read Romans 8:16, but at your recommendation, I did read it again! And I completely agree with the passage; and I DO believe that we are indeed the adopted children of God and we share in His divine nature thanks to our eldest brother – Jesus Christ!
| Quote: | | Also read Romans 8:16. This is how I know that I am saved. Do you know that you are saved? |
As far as your pointed question goes, I’ll tell you this… the topic of salvation is (I agree) extremely important! And I hope you and I can delve into it in much greater detail in the near future. But, I would like to avoid the tendency to skip over topics that seem frustrating or unimportant because of how challenging they are – just to focus on the issue of salvation. Because it is ALL important. If we focus on the parts of the Scriptures that we tend to like more than others (such as passages that deal primarily with salvation) and we get impatient trying to discuss and learn about the many other issues in the many other passages… this does damage to the truth of God and narrows our focus. Our focus needs to be on Him of course - and the entire book in general. I know you probably share my frustration with newer “Christian” sects that candidly state their belief that the Old Testament might be neat… but ultimately unimportant. They don’t find a lot that moves them or interests them in the OT, so they chose to ignore it entirely! Choosing to only believe in and study the NT. Obviously, this is not something ANY Christian should do – we should all strive to learn the Scriptures better and pray for God to open our hearts and minds! In short…? Salvation is important Jack – I am humbly asking for your patience here though - as I try to stay on topic. Okay?
But, I will answer your question! Since I think it deserves more attention though, I just want to say that this is a BREIF answer to your question. And a truly “Catholic” one in my opinion. Do I know that I am saved??? "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)." Salvation is an ongoing process according to the Bible - past, present, and future!
How’s that sound? Is that sort of the answer you were looking for? In any case... you remain in my prayers my brother.
May the Lord be with you all!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1136
Location: arizona
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: reply |
|
|
I my friend, yes, salvation is very important. You are right that Paul teaches to workout our salvation with fear and trembling, but what does that mean? I said in another post that we are spirit, soul and body (1 Thess. 5:23). Here, Paul is talking about the mind, emotions, and senses. You see, the battlefield is fought in the mind of every believer. So what do we do? Romans 12:2 tells us to renew our minds and Romans 10:17 tells us how to do it, By heariing the Word of God, and by the Word of God. Paul, also urges believer's to make their bodies a living sacrifice holy and pleasing to God, which is our reasonable service. This should be done daily. In the New Birth, our spirits are recreated, made perfect in the eyes of God (spiritual rebirth). As we study and mediate on God's Word, our soul's, and bodies will line up with our recreated spirits. You, the believer has much to do in his soulish area, otherwise the devil will play havic in a believer's life. I know this concept is strange to you, but it is Bible teaching. I think that there are way too many Baby Christians who just don't study their Bibles, and become easy pickings for the devil. Therefore, it is our spirits that are saved, and the soul is in the process of being saved. Many will go to heaven, but unfortunately will not finish their race. This concept I believe is one big mis-understanding in the Catholic Church.
I have a preaching assignment this Sunday, and think I will preach this message about salvation. Perhaps Title it: READ YOUR BIBLES.
Have a great day in the Lord, Jack |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
