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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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 Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:25 am Post subject: |
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Some claim that they can trace this predestination doctrine to Paul. They may be able to trace it to Paul the Pharisee, but not to Paul the apostle. When a Pharisee and known as Saul of Tarsus and a violent persecutor of Christians, Paul may have believed predestination. But when he abandoned that sect he did not seek to salvage any of its traditional teachings, about which Jesus remarked to those religionists: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.” (Matt. 15:6) Paul did not contaminate Christian teaching with the Pharisee doctrine of predestination of individuals. Nevertheless, predestinationists today will try to support their claim that Paul did teach predestination by quoting his words at Romans 8:29, 30: “Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
From this can it be correctly argued that certain individuals were predestinated to be called and justified and glorified as spirit creatures to reign with Christ in heaven for a thousand years? Notice in this text that the ones called and justified are first predestinated, and since the divine predestinating could not fail, no individuals once called and justified could fail to be eventually glorified with Christ. That is the view that must be taken if this text is applied to individuals. However, other persons once called and justified or declared righteous can fall away and be destroyed. So what is unfailingly predestinated at Romans 8:29, 30 must be a class, and not the individuals making up the class. God has predestinated or foreordained the requirements this class must meet, its standards of conduct, its work while on earth, its service with Christ in heaven, its place in the divine arrangement of things, and even the number of individuals that will comprise it.—Rev. 14:1-4
This make the understanding Romans 8: 29.30 clearer and it doesnot conflict with the scriptures quoted in my earier posts.
Here are the same scripture from other bibles:
Young's Literal Translation
Romans 8: 29-
29because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
30and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify
American Standard Version
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Some bibles use the word predestination. But as you can see here that this helps to get a better understanding of what is meant!
Remember the bible interpet's it's self.
There should be no contradictions.
Last edited by yme on Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:34 am Post subject: |
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| yme wrote: | good morning theseldomscene
Ecclesiastes 9:11
11 I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. 12 For man also does not know his time. |
(the last line tells you the conditions...it is talking to man about man...no man doesn't see what will befall him but...GOD SEES ALL AND KNOWS ALL...
heb4:1neither is there any creature that is not manifest in HIS sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of HIM with whom we have to do.
also...
prov.16:1 the preparations of the heart in man and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.
vs.4 THE LORD HATH MADE ALL THINGS FOR HIMSELF; YEA EVEN THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL.
vs.11 a just weight and balances are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are HIS work.
vs.33 the lot is cast into the lap;BUT THE WHOLE DISPOSING THEREOF IS OF THE LORD.
rom.8:18 therefore hath HE mercy on whom HE will have mercy, and whom HE will HE hardeneth.
vs19 thou wilt say then unto me , why doeth HE yet find fault? for who hath resisted HIS will?
vs.20nay but, o man, who art thou that repliest against GOD? shall the thing formed say to HIM that formed it, why hast thou made me thus?
21 hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour?
22 what if GOD willing to shew HIS wrath, and to make HIS power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessel of wrath fitted for destruction:
and that HE might make known the riches of HIS glory on the vessels of mercy, which HE had afore prepared unto glory..
Do you believe that animals and fish are predestined also??
what you thought was cute shows your lack of bible study...
rom.8:19for the earnest expection of the creature(creation) waiteth for the manifestations of the sons of GOD.vs.20for the creature was made subject to vanity, NOT WILLING, BUT BY REASON OF HIM WHO HATH SUBJECTED THE SAME IN HOPE.21 because the creature itself also shall be delivered from bondage of corruption(death and decay) into the glorious liberty of the children of GOD..
| Quote: | | are you saying GOD made a mistake and is not infallible |
I am saying God gave all his creatures free will! A choice!
(i know that is what you are saying and that is why you are wrong with no scripture in context to support such a claim, only ones out of context, twisted and support by the imagination of man. like the one you posted.
just so you know, i've not even got warmed up yet. or post a fraction of in context verses that disprove freewill for anyone but adam, eve, and JESUS. and even at that, adam was suppose to fall. want proof...it's coming later in the debate.) |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| yme wrote: | Some claim that they can trace this predestination doctrine to Paul. They may be able to trace it to Paul the Pharisee, but not to Paul the apostle. When a Pharisee and known as Saul of Tarsus and a violent persecutor of Christians, Paul may have believed predestination. But when he abandoned that sect he did not seek to salvage any of its traditional teachings, about which Jesus remarked to those religionists: “You have made the word of God invalid because of your tradition.” (Matt. 15:6) Paul did not contaminate Christian teaching with the Pharisee doctrine of predestination of individuals. Nevertheless, predestinationists today will try to support their claim that Paul did teach predestination by quoting his words at Romans 8:29, 30: “Whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.”
From this can it be correctly argued that certain individuals were predestinated to be called and justified and glorified as spirit creatures to reign with Christ in heaven for a thousand years? Notice in this text that the ones called and justified are first predestinated, and since the divine predestinating could not fail, no individuals once called and justified could fail to be eventually glorified with Christ. That is the view that must be taken if this text is applied to individuals. However, other persons once called and justified or declared righteous can fall away and be destroyed. So what is unfailingly predestinated at Romans 8:29, 30 must be a class, and not the individuals making up the class. God has predestinated or foreordained the requirements this class must meet, its standards of conduct, its work while on earth, its service with Christ in heaven, its place in the divine arrangement of things, and even the number of individuals that will comprise it.—Rev. 14:1-4
This make the understanding Romans 8: 29.30 clearer and it doesnot conflict with the scriptures quoted in my earier posts.
Here are the same scripture from other bibles:
Young's Literal Translation
Romans 8: 29-
29because whom He did foreknow, He also did fore-appoint, conformed to the image of His Son, that he might be first-born among many brethren;
30and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify...American Standard Version
29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: 30 and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Some bibles use the word predestination. But as you can see here that this helps to get a better understanding of what is meant! |
the most ridiculous statement any has every made on these boards since i have been here..bar none...you said paul the pharisee....whatever, you don't know what you're talking about...no it says they are predestined first...please don't rewrite the bible...yes the verses do contradict and disprove all your babblings...and nowhere is there biblical support for you words..you write scripture and then show your contamination by the lies you've been taught by saying it doesn't mean what it clearly says...par for cours for your sect....making up what they don't understand...you wrote the word, then argue against it...funny..who's side are you debating? mine or yours?..you did nothing but provide scripoture to support mine then you own words to argue against it in support of yours...thanks for the entertainmet.... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| yme wrote: | “God is not partial, but in every nation the man that fears him and works righteousness is acceptable to him.”—Acts 10:34, 35
What if you are born into a Muslem family, does that mean you are predestined to become a Muslem. If that is the case this scripture is meaningless.
I'm assuming for you ( I don't like to do that, so set me straight if you want to) that God is the one that is perdestining people! So why would he need this scripture in the bible, if a man's life is already predestined?
To believe in predestination you would have to say that God is partial, because he would have to predestine some to follow him and others not to. and why would God predestine people to be in other religions? This just does not make any sense.
Because God says that few will be finding the narrow road to life many will go on the broad road to destruction.
God would have to predestine many more for destruction than the ones he predestined to life.
Does that make any kind of sense at all. Ofcourse not.
And why would they have to find anything, they would have been predestined!
Just does not make sense!! |
it doesn't make sense to you because you are unread...i have disprove your rants already with my first post on this page....absoluetly...the numbers for the lost and found are set in eternity and nothing can change that...the seekers find because they are predestined to seek and find...please, this is a bible debate not a j.w. doctrine seminar. if you have some more scripture and not the words of man and your own vain babblings...post it...oh never mind...you tried and failed miserbly...writing the word as it is plainly written then going around the world, checking all the the cult has to offer to make it say something different than what even you plainly wrote it does....pitiful...can you not see that?...no? because your predestined not to... |
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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | paul the pharisee.... |
.............oops
I meant to say he got his religious learnings from the Pharisees.
His parents were Hebrews and evidently adhered to the Pharisaic branch of Judaism. (Ac 23:6; Php 3:5) He was a Roman citizen from birth (Ac 22:28), his father having perhaps been granted citizenship for services rendered. Paul probably learned the trade of tentmaker from his father. (Ac 18:3) But, at Jerusalem, he received instruction from the learned Pharisee Gamaliel
Last edited by yme on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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theseldomscene
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| yme wrote: | Did you know :
M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia, Volume I, page 499, links predestination and astrology and shows Mohammedanism’s interest in both, saying: “By the latter [judicial astrology], it was pretended, could be predicted events which were dependent upon the human will, as particular actions, peace, war, etc. Astrology accords well with the predestinarian doctrines of Mohammedanism, and was accordingly cultivated with great ardor by the Arabs from the seventh to the thirteenth century. Some of the early Christian fathers argued against the doctrines of astrology; others received them in a modified form. In its public capacity the Roman Church several times condemned the system, but many zealous churchmen cultivated it. Cardinal D’Ailly, ‘the eagle of the doctors of France’ (died 1420), is said to have calculated the horoscope of Jesus Christ, and maintained that the Deluge might have been predicted by astrology.” |
proves nothing but your long windedness...the bible man...get back to the bible in this topic...i have a pile of books that lay bare the vainity of your doctrine....but this is a one on one debate on predestination by thewords of the bible...i thought it was anyway..but since you have no scripture, i can't blame you for grabbing anyting you misunderstanding allows.. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| yme wrote: | Before their captivity in Babylon, the Jews frequently fell victims to idolatries. After their return to Jerusalem they avoided the more obvious idolatries, falling instead into more subtle snares.
They began to build up a great mass of tradition, and religious sects arose among them. One of these was the Pharisees. They did not believe in predestination by the star gods of the heathen, but they did believe God so determined human lives.
By their tradition they transferred a pagan doctrine to God and voided his word that time and chance happen to all of them, rather than events being predestinated. |
i've already disproved this silliness. now if you finished with you man made ideas of what the bible should say...can we get back to what it does?
oh yeah before i forget...in context...
ron.8:28-33 and we know that all things work together for good to them that love GOD, to them WHO ARE THE CALLED ACORING TO HIS PURPOSE. for whom HE did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethern. moreover whom HE did predestinate, THEN HE ALSO CALLED: and whom HE called then HE also justified(please study that word and that should show you your error...if your not blind): and whom HE justified, them HE also glorified. what shall we say to these things? if GOD be for us who dcan be against us?(certainly not you) HE that spared not HIS own SON, but delivered HIM up for us all, how shall HE not with HIM also freely give us alll things? who shall lay anything to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? it is GOD that justifieth.
in context and without your babblings it completely destroys your nonsense...try again please...but use the word this time and not your two little friends ideas...
Last edited by theseldomscene on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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because what I've witten seems to have gone over your head, I would like to ask you a simple question.
Do you think that Satan has any influence on us as humans? In other words do you think, he can make us think or do things that we would not have done with out his influence?
Last edited by yme on Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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theseldomscene
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Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: |
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| over my head?...no sir..like satan it is under my feet!!! yes he does what ever GOD has predestined HIM to do. like you me and everyone else according to the word untainted by the flaws of man, like your arguement is tainted....more bible less babble please!!! |
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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| You didn't answer my question! |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | ... yes he does what ever GOD has predestined HIM to do. like you me and everyone else according to the word untainted by the flaws of man, like your arguement is tainted....more bible less babble please!!! |
and apparently you have a problem with reading comprehension....oh, of course you do...i could tell that by the way you misinterprete the scriptures...seeing how you do so...i can see how you missed my answer to you silly question. |
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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:20 pm Post subject: |
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I saw horrible thing the other day on TV , a girl with a normal body and 2 heads. each head with it's own personalities. They would even fight with one another.
Do you think God predestinated that? |
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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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| how many abortions do you think God predestinated? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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again...
prov.16: the LORD hath made all things for HIMSELF: even the wicked for the day of evil...
but that don't mean that...no it means...hold on let me ask my leaders in the sect...it means something else..the lexicon, i mean the heb, i mean the watchtower say that we can't take that like it is written...i mean i don't know what i mean....
please for the last time....LESS BABBLE AND MORE BIBLE...that is what this palce is for...bible discussion.com...not, babble of nonsense.com |
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yme
Big Goldfish
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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If Satan has any influence on us to change our thinking or actions, then the pagan idea of predestination is a lie.
I think he does, and I think that is why the world is the way it is.
God correctly forsaw how bad the world of mankind would be, just before the end of this system of things.
The bible say that the whole world is liying in the power of the wicked one.(Satan) His influence has brought the world to this point.( Did God predestinate that. No!! But he did foresee it!) |
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