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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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 Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | | It's a non-sequitur. |
I think you mean "false dilemma." |
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Carico
German Shepherd
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Quotes from scientist about evolution |
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| larryjf wrote: | "I have little hesitation in saying that a sickly pall now hangs over the big bang theory."
(Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist, and mathematician, Cambridge University)
"The pathetic thing is that we have scientists who are trying to prove evolution, which no scientist can ever prove."
(Dr Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize winner and eminent evolutionist)
"The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge."
(Dr A Fleishmann, Zoologist, Erlangen University)
"It is good to keep in mind ... that nobody has ever succeeded in producing even one new species by the accumulation of micromutations. Darwin's theory of natural selection has never had any proof, yet it has been universally accepted."
(Prof. R Goldschmidt PhD, DSc Prof. Zoology, University of Calif. in Material Basis of Evolution Yale Univ. Press)
"Overwhelming strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie around us ... The atheistic idea is so nonsensical that I cannot put it into words."
(Lord Kelvin, Vict. Inst., 124, p267)
It is possible (and, given the Flood, probable) that materials which give radiocarbon dates of tens of thousands of radiocarbon years could have true ages of many fewer calendar years."
(Gerald Aardsman, Ph.D., physicist and C-14 dating specialist)
"We have to admit that there is nothing in the geological records that runs contrary to the views of conservative creationists."
(Evolutionist Edmund Ambrose)
"The best physical evidence that the earth is young is the dwindling resource that evolutionists refuse to admit is dwindling ... the magnetic energy in the field of the earth's dipole magnet ... To deny that it is a dwindling resource is phoney science."
(Thomas Barnes Ph.D., physicist)
"It is easy enough to make up stories, of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test."
(Luther D Sutherland, Darwin's Enigma, Master Books 1988, p89)
"Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which - a functional protein or gene - is complex beyond ... anything produced by the intelligence of man?"
(Molecular biologist Michael Denton, Evolutionist: A Theory in Crisis (London: Burnett Books, 1985) p 342.)
"Although bacteria are tiny, they display biochemical, structural and behavioural complexities that outstrip scientific description. In keeping with the current microelectronics revolution, it may make more sense to equate their size with sophistication rather than with simplicity ... Without bacteria life on earth could not exist in its present form."
(James A Shipiro, Bacteria as Multicellular Organisms, "Scientific America, Vol.258, No.6 (June 1988))
"Eighty to eighty-five percent of earth's land surface does not have even 3 geological periods appearing in 'correct' consecutive order ... it becomes an overall exercise of gargantuan special pleading and imagination for the evolutionary-uniformitarian paradigm to maintain that there ever were geologic periods."
(John Woodmorappe, geologist)
"That a mindless, purposeless, chance process such as natural selection, acting on the sequels of recombinant DNA or random mutation, most of which are injurious or fatal, could fabricate such complexity and organisation as the vertebrate eye, where each component part must carry out its own distinctive task in a harmoniously functioning optical unit, is inconceivable. The absence of transitional forms between the invertebrates retina and that of the vertebrates poses another difficulty. Here there is a great gulf fixed which remains inviolate with no seeming likelihood of ever being bridged. The total picture speaks of intelligent creative design of an infinitely high order."
(H.S.Hamilton (MD) The Retina of the Eye - An Evolutionary Road Block.) |
And what's sad about this is that people need scientists themselves to say this because many people cannot think this through on their own. Therefore, if I point out the absurdity of evolution, people will call me all sorts of vile names. But if scientists point them out, then people think, oh, yeah, yeah, they must be right. So this shows that men do not actually have faith in the theory of evolution, but in infallible scientists who change their minds all the time. All I can say to this is that if people want to put their faith in people who have a horrible track record by changing their minds about the truth, then they will always be in the dark about what's true and what's false. I prefer to believe an infallible source of truth over a fallible one. 
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Blessings in Christ,
Heidi |
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SDMD
Show Poodle
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 253
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Quotes from scientist about evolution |
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| Carico wrote: | | And what's sad about this is that people need scientists themselves to say this because many people cannot think this through on their own. |
<throwing up hands> Didn't you read the rest of the tread, where it was proven that lots of that stuff was outright lies and misrepresentation?
| Quote: | | I prefer to believe an infallible source of truth over a fallible one. |
So when the bible states that Pi is 3.0, then you go with that, right?
_________________
Geology: fossils of different ages
Paleontology: fossil sequence & species change over time.
Taxonomy: biological relationships
Evolution: explanation that ties it all together.
Creationism: squeezing eyes shut, wailing "DOES NOT!" |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| Carico wrote: | | And what's sad about this is that people need scientists themselves to say this because many people cannot think this through on their own. |
What's sad is that creationists rely on quote-mining to support their claims.
Quote 1: Sir Fred Hoyle. "I have little hesitation in saying that a sickly pall now hangs over the big bang theory."
First: Fred Hoyle was not a creationist. He simply did not feel that the big bang adequately explained the creation of new matter. He proposed quasi-steady state cosmology as an alternative.
"The QSS model suggests that, rather than a single Big Bang, there have been many expansions occurring over time. The QSS has stated that there are pockets of creation within the universe, referred to by the QSS theory as 'minibangs' or 'mini-creation events.'"
So, basically, he didn't have a problem with the idea of the big bang, so much as he felt that there was more than one which led to our current universe. Thus, this quote, in reality, fails to support creation.
Quote 2: Dr Robert Millikan. "The pathetic thing is that we have scientists who are trying to prove evolution, which no scientist can ever prove."
First: Robert Millikan was a physicist. Second: he lived from 1868 to 1953. He won the Nobel Prize for measuring the charge of the electron and work on the photoelectric effect. He was not a "prominent evolutionist." Finally, no scientist can ever prove that evolution occured a specific way. To do such a thing would require time travel. This does not lessen the theory of evolution, as no theory can ever truly be "proven."
So, he was a physicist, and not a prominent evolutionist. His statement is simply a matter of fact observation of the way things are, not a condemnation of the theory of evolution. This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 3: Dr Albert Fleischmann. "The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge."
Albert Fleischmann was a creationist. He was also the only actual biologist on one of the first creationist lists of scientists that support creation.
This is the objective of the Victoria Institute (the journal of which this quote was found in): First. - To investigate fully and impartially the most important questions of Philosophy and Science, but more especially those that bear upon the great truths revealed in Holy Scripture, with the view of defending these truths against the oppositions of Science, falsely so called.
Albert Fleischmann, or at the very least the journal this quote was found in, was biased. This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 4: R Goldschmidt. "It is good to keep in mind ... that nobody has ever succeeded in producing even one new species by the accumulation of micromutations. Darwin's theory of natural selection has never had any proof, yet it has been universally accepted."
No date is given, but this quote is plainly out of date. Speciation has been observed in laboratories on numerous occasions. This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 5: Lord Kelvin. "Overwhelming strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie around us ... The atheistic idea is so nonsensical that I cannot put it into words."
Conveniently, Kelvin fails to put these strong proofs in words as well. Note, this quote is also from the Victoria Institute. Therefore, this quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 6: Gerald Aardsman. "It is possible (and, given the Flood, probable) that materials which give radiocarbon dates of tens of thousands of radiocarbon years could have true ages of many fewer calendar years."
Flood? What Flood?
Quote 7: Edmund Ambrose. "We have to admit that there is nothing in the geological records that runs contrary to the views of conservative creationists."
This is a prime example of quote mining. Here's the context that was found in:
"We need to remember that the only evidence about the way events occurred in the past is found in the geological records. However sophisticated advances in molecular genetics and molecular engineering may become eventually, the fact that a genetic change or even a new species might be generated eventually in the laboratory does not tell us how new species arose in the past history of the earth. They merely provide possible mechanisms. At the present stage of geological research, we have to admit that there is nothing in the geological records that runs contrary to the view of conservative creationists, that God created each species separately, presumably from the dust of the earth. My own view is that this does not strengthen the creationists' arguments."
This is from later in the same book:
"It is strikingly clear in the geological records, when life had reached the stage where organisms were capable of living in a previously unoccupied region of the planet, such as the move from estuaries to dry land, the appearance of plants growing to great heights which provided a location (habitat) for climbing animals, or when birds and insects actually moved up and flew in theair[sp] above the earth's surface. Large numbers of new species appeared at these times; this has been called radiation, a spreading out of life."
And finally:
"Surely it is not unreasonable to suppose that the Creator utilised existing life forms to generate new forms. I have already suggested that the Creator would operate within the framework of the universe He had created in forming the physical world. May this not be the same for the biological world?"
Ambrose is a theistic evolutionist. The quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 8: Thomas Barnes. "The best physical evidence that the earth is young is the dwindling resource that evolutionists refuse to admit is dwindling ... the magnetic energy in the field of the earth's dipole magnet ... To deny that it is a dwindling resource is phoney science."
Barnes measures only the dipole component of the total magnetic field, but the dipole field is not a measure of total field strength. The dipole field can vary as the total magnetic field strength remains unchanged.
This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 9: Luther D Sutherland. "It is easy enough to make up stories, of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test."
This is just another form of quote 2, and fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 10: Michael Denton. "Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which - a functional protein or gene - is complex beyond ... anything produced by the intelligence of man?"
First, I'd like to point out humorous I find it that he is labelled an evolutionist, and yet wrote a book called Evolution: A Theory in Crisis.
Anyway. The theory of evolution does not assert that random processes formed life as we know it. This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 11: James A Shipiro. "Although bacteria are tiny, they display biochemical, structural and behavioural complexities that outstrip scientific description. In keeping with the current microelectronics revolution, it may make more sense to equate their size with sophistication rather than with simplicity ... Without bacteria life on earth could not exist in its present form."
I'm curious as to what complexities Shipiro feels are outstripping scientific description, rather than an apparently empty assertion to that idea. Until then, this quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 12: John Woodmorappe. "Eighty to eighty-five percent of earth's land surface does not have even 3 geological periods appearing in 'correct' consecutive order ... it becomes an overall exercise of gargantuan special pleading and imagination for the evolutionary-uniformitarian paradigm to maintain that there ever were geologic periods."
1. Folds account for out-of-order strata with sequences such as A-B-C-B-A. Faults create sequences such as B-C-A-B-C. The evidence is so overwhelming that these conclusions should be obvious. In many cases, the folds and faults can easily be seen in cross-sections of the strata. In other cases, further geological mapping verifies the presence of the fold or fault. Features such as ripple marks and mud cracks show that the strata were originally horizontal.
2. Great forces are not a problem in geophysics. First, great forces exist. Earthquakes can move many miles of crust by several feet at a time. Second, the forces act over a long period of time. Rocks which would fracture if bent suddenly will deform gradually under hundreds of millions of years of heat and constant pressure.
Faults do, in fact, produce a layer of debris along the fault line. Sometimes this layer is fairly thin. There is no reason to expect great amounts of debris along all faults.
3. The geologic column is never out of order in areas that have not been greatly disturbed.
This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
Quote 13: H.S.Hamilton. "That a mindless, purposeless, chance process such as natural selection, acting on the sequels of recombinant DNA or random mutation, most of which are injurious or fatal, could fabricate such complexity and organisation as the vertebrate eye, where each component part must carry out its own distinctive task in a harmoniously functioning optical unit, is inconceivable. The absence of transitional forms between the invertebrates retina and that of the vertebrates poses another difficulty. Here there is a great gulf fixed which remains inviolate with no seeming likelihood of ever being bridged. The total picture speaks of intelligent creative design of an infinitely high order."
1. Natural selection does not rely on chance.
2. On eye evolution. Not to mention that eyes are a weak point for creation, not evolution. Why would we have blind spots if we were designed?
This quote fails to detract from the theory of evolution.
| Carico wrote: | | Therefore, if I point out the absurdity of evolution, people will call me all sorts of vile names. |
I'm not going to call you any vile names. I may assert that you are sadly deluded and/or ignorant, but I'm not going to call you names.
Mostly I'm just preemptively disappointed because I've effectively wasted 20-30 minutes responding to each of these quotes, and it will accomplish nothing.
| Carico wrote: | | I prefer to believe an infallible source of truth over a fallible one. |
Like how God doesn't punish descendents for their ancestor's sins, or how he does? Oops.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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