Baptism

dole · Tadpole Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 27

Since I'm new here, I ran a search on baptism to see what people had to say. I found nothing. I know this has potential to get nasty, so please don't think I want to get ill with anyone. I'd just like some brief (or longer if you choose) summations on your thoughts on baptism.

A couple of things I'd like to throw out there for starters are:
1)Christian baptism (immersion of believers) is commanded by Jesus (Matthew 28 and Mark 16) and by Paul (Acts 2:38). There are others, I just picked these because they are well-known.
2)Baptism is not the only thing one must do to be saved, nor does it guarantee eternal life.
3)Baptism is not a work.

Van · Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 5:09 pm Post subject: Baptism

You do not have to get wet to be saved.

dole · Tadpole Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 27

What is baptism for? Why does the Bible say anything about it if it's irrelevant?
I'm not talking about the person on the way to church who wants to, but gets hit by a car. I'm talking about a person who comes to believe and wants to be saved. In a "textbook" conversion, would baptism be a part of it? I don't think you're done when you come up out of the water, but I think it's a big step.
First Peter 3:21-22 talk about how baptism is a part of salvation. Just like other verses, it is not to be concluded from just these two verses that salvation is the only thing necessary, but it contributes to the New Testament's message as a whole.

Van · Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2003 6:07 pm Post subject: Baptism

The question you have to ask is what kind of baptism? By water, John's baptism or by Spirit, Christ's baptism? And is the baptism of the Spirit being covered by the blood of Christ, or being filled with the Spirit.

Lets look at Acts 2:38: "And Peter said to them, Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Was Peter talking about being baptized by the blood of Jesus in a figurative sense for the forgiveness of sins? Or was he talking about water baptism? How do you get baptized by the blood of Jesus? By placing your trust and reliance on Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, or by being dunked?

What is water baptism for? Well it clearly demonstrates a willingness to follow the instructions of Jesus. It reinforces our understanding that we die to this world (being submerged in the water) then re-emerge as a new creature committed to Christ as Lord and Savior.

Dole, you made an interesting statement, Baptism is not a work. I think faith is an inward mental committment to Christ, and work as outward action. Water baptism is certainly a outward action, so why is it not a work?

dole · Tadpole Joined: 02 Feb 2003 Posts: 27

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Was Peter talking about being baptized by the blood of Jesus in a figurative sense for the forgiveness of sins? Or was he talking about water baptism?

The two are one in the same. Just because John used water to baptize does not mean that any baptism within a church is John's baptism. It is literal, or else Philip and the eunuch could have stayed in the chariot.

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What is water baptism for? Well it clearly demonstrates a willingness to follow the instructions of Jesus. It reinforces our understanding that we die to this world (being submerged in the water) then re-emerge as a new creature committed to Christ as Lord and Savior.

Your definition of baptism shows it is obviously not John's, for it shows that baptism represents us being buried with Christ and rising into a newness of life. John's baptism was showing a readiness for the Messiah who would bring forgiveness. It wasn't for the forgiveness of sins nor the gift of the Holy Spirit like Christian baptism is.

quote:
Dole, you made an interesting statement, Baptism is not a work. I think faith is an inward mental committment to Christ, and work as outward action. Water baptism is certainly a outward action, so why is it not a work?

Baptism is obviously physical, an outward action. But it is not a work. Baptism is something that is done to you; you receive it, not perform it.

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Lets look at Acts 2:38: "And Peter said to them, Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Good idea. According to this we are to be baptized. Looking at how it is said, you'll see that whoever gets dunked is receiving the action. It is not anything they are doing. An analogous situation would be getting surgery. You may go to the hospital to have an operation to fix you. Yes, you are going to the hospital, but you are not doing the surgery. The surgery is being performed on you. In the same way, baptism isn't something you do, but receive.

Another thing I would like to point out is this, from Matthew 28:19-20.
19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
We both agree that we need to make disciples of all nations and teach them to obey everything Christ has commanded us. Why question whether we are supposed to baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? We have no reason to believe that Jesus meant a figurative baptism, but we do have reason to believe it was immersion. One example is the aforementioned Philip and eunuch story. It's in Acts 8. Pay close attention to verses 35-39. I sited 1 Peter 3:21-22 on the previous post. It also mentions water's role in baptism.

I would like to point out that I'm understanding you to say that a model Christian would be baptized. We just differ on why s/he should be baptized and perhaps the importance of it. Considering the many farout doctrines and beliefs a lot of people have, I'm glad that we can relate in so many ways and have this discussion. I truly believe you to respect the whole Bible as God's inerrant word, and that it has all the answers. I feel this topic so far has been one that has benefited me, and there certainly are topics I have enjoyed as well. No matter what we decide, may we all live to glorify God Almighty. I'm sure we can agree on that one.

puffer · Posted: Wed Feb 05, 2003 5:11 pm Post subject: Baptism

quote:
Originally posted by Van:
The question you have to ask is what kind of baptism? By water, John's baptism or by Spirit, Christ's baptism? And is the baptism of the Spirit being covered by the blood of Christ, or being filled with the Spirit.

Lets look at Acts 2:38: "And Peter said to them, Repent and let each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Was Peter talking about being baptized by the blood of Jesus in a figurative sense for the forgiveness of sins? Or was he talking about water baptism? How do you get baptized by the blood of Jesus? By placing your trust and reliance on Jesus for the forgiveness of sins, or by being dunked?

What is water baptism for? Well it clearly demonstrates a willingness to follow the instructions of Jesus. It reinforces our understanding that we die to this world (being submerged in the water) then re-emerge as a new creature committed to Christ as Lord and Savior.

Dole, you made an interesting statement, Baptism is not a work. I think faith is an inward mental committment to Christ, and work as outward action. Water baptism is certainly a outward action, so why is it not a work?

VAN! I must say I appreciate your comments to DOLE on baptism.
If I may go a step further. In the Church both the one in the wildnerness and the one under grace. The gravity of baptism cannot be understated. Scriptual baptism, that is, the way Jesus said do it, is a must to be partaker of the Church given gifts of the Holy Spirit. As for Acts 2:38 this is often read as a single thought, which it is not. There is a definite double subject as you are well aware. Even as Christ commanded in Matthew to preach the gospel unto all the world and bapize them(such as believed) in the name of the Father and the Son and The Holy Ghost(there are three that bear witness in Heaven) so in similitude is Acts 2:38. The Gospel as you are well aware must be preached for souls to be saved for it is the power of God unto salvation and it please God through the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. So the first part of the double message is "believe" and besaved to which I know you agree and it's counterpart in Acts is "repent" which is simply the obvious by product for how can one turn to Christ without turning away from sin. The second part is what confuses folks. to read the Acts' scripture would be like this, to paraphrase it: Repent(be saved) and be baptized in the name of Jesus(to enter the Church and and have access to the Spiritual gifts given only to the Church.
If any physical effort can be called work then yes, baptizism is a work, but much,much more; It is a rite, a doorway and the answer to a good concious(obedience} which you have already stated. Love in Christ

Phinehas · Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 9:00 am Post subject:

Luke 23:40-43:
But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This criminal makes a confession of faith by acknowledging that Jesus would come into His kingdom...if you will, a "deathbed" confession. He calls on the name of Jesus by asking Him to remember him (asking for His mercy). This criminal was not baptized and yet Jesus told him he'd be with Him in paradise.

Is baptism necessary to salvation? Apparently not. Is it important none the less? Absolutely. It is a believer's first act of obedience. But doesn't Jesus command it? Yes. He also commands us to go and make disciples of all nations. How many of us will do this before we're called home? Would disobeying this command of Jesus disqualify one for salvation?

Baptism is a "work" in the sense that it is not an act of faith. (Faith is not required for one to be dunked in H2O. I'm sure most if not all of us have known people who have been baptized who have not believed.) If baptism were a requirement of salvation, then salvation is no longer an act of grace and it robs God of His divine mercy by saying that we are somehow in control of our own salvation, whether in whole or in part.

Does this mean that we may or should neglect to be baptised? I'll quote from Paul in Romans:
6:15 - What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

That's my $0.02.

Phin
_________________
“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

Van · Posted: Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:39 am Post subject: baptism

Phin, I think your post is worth more than two cents because it is sound as a dollar.

Hopefully I am not being too repeditive, but I will say this again:

Being saved means, among other things, being saved from the coming wrath of God. Thus it entails being forgiven or gaining mercy and being forgiven because of the blood of Jesus. When, by faith, we place our trust in Jesus, and not in our own works, and we turn from a self centered life to a Christ centered life, we are saved as we enter into Christ in the spirit.
We are covered by His blood. As this happens, at the same time, we are sealed by the gift of the Holy Spirit which indwells us. At this point we are saved. We have not spoken in tongues, nor been baptised in water, but we are saved, and have been baptized into Christ's body by the Spirit.
Afterwords, we can manifest the Spirit by being filled with the Spirit. This can happen in the next minute (i.e without delay) or we might not manifest the spirit until we demonstrate obediance such as by being water baptized, or by having others lay on hands. The problem that divides so many of us is that sometimes being initially filled with the spirit is called being baptized by the spirit and is confused with the initial indwelling which always occurs at the moment of salvation by faith alone.

I know this will not convince others holding other views, but I assert this view conforms with a reasonable understanding of all scripture. Amen.

One other minor point, just because someone does something to you or with you does not necessarily mean it is not a work. Consider the Judizers, they were sharpening the tools of others, yet it was a works heresy.

Heavenly Home · Posted: Wed Feb 19, 2003 7:54 pm Post subject:

first off.. acts 2:38 clearly says we must be baptised.. read.. romans 6:4 i believe it is... baptism is Jesus washing all our sins away... its a symbol of Jesus dying.. his blood washing our sins away..go down an old man.. come up a the new.. bury the sins.. and forget them.. cuz Jesus does..

larryjf · Posted: Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:47 am Post subject:

Faith in Christ alone is salvation.
Once a person is saved, Christ lives out through them.

If you are a Christian and don't get baptized, you are living in rebellion simply because you are denying the command of Christ. Since a Christian who is a rebel against God is not really a Christian - it is really a fallacious argument.

In trying to set up an impossible scenario - A Christian submitted to the will of Christ not doing what Christ commands - the argument actually argues against itself.

Just my thoughts

In Christ

Phinehas · Posted: Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:41 pm Post subject:

I suppose it wouldn't be too difficult to imagine a situation in which people who are submitted to the will of Christ don't get baptized prior to their dying. In a place of widespread famine, for example, Christian converts may not be anywhere near water for baptism, may be too malnourished to travel to where there might be water, and may starve to death or be murdered by Islamic government troops (as in Sudan) before there's an opportunity to be baptized. I'm sure others could think of other such situations. I hate to ask what I think is a question the answer to which is obvious, but would such people be denied salvation?

To say that we must do anything to attain salvation is denying God's grace to some degree. To say otherwise is called legalism--i.e., we must obey the law in order to be saved--and is a form of works righteousness.

Phin
_________________
“When they chose new gods, war came to the city gates, and not a shield or spear was seen among forty thousand in Israel. My heart is with Israel's princes, with the willing volunteers among the people. Praise the LORD!” Judges 5:8-9

Tiger75 · Posted: Tue Feb 25, 2003 1:17 am Post subject: To do or not to do?

As I discuss these topics with various believers from all over I think I've discovered a common theme in most of biblical questions that Christians raise: we just don't like being told what to do Smile

Which is a problem for the Christian because when s/he is saved s/he 'hands' over everything to Christ and makes it their goal to serve Him and seek (earnestly) 'to do' whatever He commands.

Like Paul says (Phil 1:21):